Author Topic: How will CC handle fake coins?  (Read 1504 times)

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Offline Jeru

How will CC handle fake coins?
« on: 2013 Jul 13, 04:33:35 PM »
CCS54963: 1987 1/4 oz gold Mazu fake NGC 68 Ultra Cameo - Sale ongoing for 599.99 USD on 13 July 2013
CC9233: 1987 1/4 oz gold Mazu fake NGC 68 Ultra Cameo
CCT4131: 1987 1/4 oz gold Mazu fake
Fake 1987 1/4 oz gold Mazu

How will CC handle fake coins?

Old fake types should be transferred to CCT4091: Fake.  No new fake types must be added yet.  All possible new types must be posted to New type discussion and confirmations sub-forum first for confirmation, as always.  But I guess we already have a new addition to the fake type family, CCT4131.

Newly found fake NGC specimens must be transferred to CCT4091: Fake and be linked to their genuine types by putting "This specimen has a deleted grade in NGC because it's fake of___" in their introduction section, CC20073: Fake NGC 69 Ultra Cameo

Everyone is supposed to verify their specimens after they enter them to be sure they entered the certification number correctly. If that procedure is being done, then that will give the CC team the opportunity to see that a coin has been deleted from NGC's database. At that point, a "Deleted" problem should be entered for the specimen, and a screenshot of the sighting venue and the NGC verification page should probably be made too
Screenshot the ebay listing and NGC cert verification page of the fake coin and upload them to the specimen page.

But do we still need to enter sightings for confirmed fake specimens?  and how?  I think if fake specimens will have fake sightings too it shouldn't have a specific fake type anymore, all will just have to be added under CCT4091: Fake because that will not give them a proper sighting title like the genuine sightings and that will be a little less confusing to the public viewers of CC...I think.

I mean like this:
CC20073: Fake NGC 69 Ultra Cameo - added under the main fake type, CCT4091: Fake
CC9233: 1987 1/4 oz gold Mazu fake NGC 68 Ultra Cameo - added under a specific fake type, CCT4131: 1987 1/4 oz gold Mazu fake
CC19025: 1987 1/4 oz gold Mazu NGC 69 Ultra Cameo - added under a genuine type, CCT960: 1987 1/4 oz gold Mazu
« Last Edit: 2013 Jul 13, 04:35:55 PM by Jeru »
"...but the greatest of these is love." -1 Corinthians 13:13
 

Offline badon

Re: How will CC handle fake coins?
« Reply #1 on: 2013 Jul 14, 01:06:11 PM »
Yes, we still need to enter sightings for fakes. They are very helpful for anyone looking for CC information about the sighting or the fake specimen. As far as I know, the CC is the only institution making an effort to record data about fakes, which will make it an important resource for anyone who needs that information.

The only time new fake types should be made is when the type is identifiable as coming from a known source. For example, if a factory somewhere started producing a lot of identical fakes of a single type or specimen, we would then be able to classify them under a type that identifies the source they came from.

Right now, it looks like your question is about fake specimens that have an authentic NGC certification number that was revoked when NGC realized the coin was actually a fake. In those cases, the sighting should be entered for the specimen, which can easily be found with the certification number. The sighting should be screenshotted, but the NGC verification page should only be screenshotted once, for the specimen, not every time it is sighted.

As we collect more data about fakes, we can come up with better ways to enter it.
 

Offline Jeru

Re: How will CC handle fake coins?
« Reply #2 on: 2013 Jul 14, 03:53:25 PM »
So for now, no new fake types should be added under CCT4091: Fake.  If there is a fake specimen, it will be added directly under CCT4091.  But if the fake specimen already has a fake type under CCT4091, then it should go under that fake type...?
"...but the greatest of these is love." -1 Corinthians 13:13
 

Offline badon

Re: How will CC handle fake coins?
« Reply #3 on: 2013 Jul 14, 05:23:22 PM »
Yes, that sounds like a reasonable way to handle that. Eventually, I might add form fields that say "fake of type" and "fake of specimen" so you can enter info that can be used to organize the fakes. Then, we could automatically generate a list of all fakes of a particular type or specimen. As you add fakes, let me know if you have any ideas for how we can handle them.
 

Offline Jeru

Re: How will CC handle fake coins?
« Reply #4 on: 2013 Jul 14, 05:43:42 PM »
Thank you.
"...but the greatest of these is love." -1 Corinthians 13:13
 

Offline Jeru

Re: How will CC handle fake coins?
« Reply #5 on: 2013 Jul 17, 03:19:12 AM »
Fake 1987 1/4 oz gold Mazu

Authenticity

Since NGC likes changing its way of identifying their known fake slabs, NOT GENUINE to DELETED to CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICE, maybe their CC specimens should just have a standard 0 grade and fake problem...?  And of course screenshot of NGC cert verification page should still be uploaded to support the information.
"...but the greatest of these is love." -1 Corinthians 13:13
 

Offline Jeru

Re: How will CC handle fake coins?
« Reply #6 on: 2013 Jul 17, 03:33:13 AM »
CC9233: 1987 1/4 oz gold Mazu fake NGC 0

And maybe the designation field should be made blank too?  Because if it doesn't have a grade, it also shouldn't have a designation, right?
"...but the greatest of these is love." -1 Corinthians 13:13
 

Offline badon

Re: How will CC handle fake coins?
« Reply #7 on: 2013 Jul 17, 11:38:34 PM »
I think we should use the info on the slab label, instead of using the information in NGC's database. Basically, we  want to record as much info as possible, and since NGC is deleting some info from their database, the only way to record the deleted info is from the slab label. It just can't be verified anymore, because NGC has revoked its certification.

I had not noticed that NGC was changing the way it handles accidental certification of fake coins, so please record that information somewhere. I'm not sure where the best place to put it would be - maybe on the article for the fakes type? NGC would prefer that all these fakes just go away, because it's an accidental mistake on their part, but I think it's good to raise its prominence so people know what's going on at this time in history.

For coins that are in fake slabs, those were never certified by NGC (even if the coin itself is genuine). I seem to remember finding one of those once, and I linked it to the genuine certified coin, but I don't remember how I decided to enter that info. I think it was a New York expo panda, and it might have been discussed somewhere. Actually, it might be easy to find under the fake type somewhere, if it has been moved there. That might help us decide what we should do here, if there are remaining questions.
 

Offline Jeru

Re: How will CC handle fake coins?
« Reply #8 on: 2013 Jul 18, 12:44:34 AM »
I think we should use the info on the slab label, instead of using the information in NGC's database. Basically, we  want to record as much info as possible, and since NGC is deleting some info from their database, the only way to record the deleted info is from the slab label. It just can't be verified anymore, because NGC has revoked its certification.
Ok.  So CC specimen will still have grade and designation if they are available on the slab label.  But what will be recorded for the problem field?  Will it be NOT GENUINE for the not genuine's and DELETED for the deleted's and CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICE for the contact ngc customer service's NGC labeled cert verification?  Or will it be FAKE for all fake specimens and just make a note in the introduction section of the specimen page that NGC gave that specimen a NOT GENUINE or DELETED or CONTACT NGC CUSTOMER SERVICE because its fake...?  And screenshot the NGC cert verification page to back up the information that the CC has, and also, if NGC decides to change something again, the CC can prove that the change happen and its not a CC error, or something like that.

I had not noticed that NGC was changing the way it handles accidental certification of fake coins, so please record that information somewhere. I'm not sure where the best place to put it would be - maybe on the article for the fakes type? NGC would prefer that all these fakes just go away, because it's an accidental mistake on their part, but I think it's good to raise its prominence so people know what's going on at this time in history.
Record the information just on the fake type, CCT4091: Fake?  Or maybe in every fake specimen too?

For coins that are in fake slabs, those were never certified by NGC (even if the coin itself is genuine). I seem to remember finding one of those once, and I linked it to the genuine certified coin, but I don't remember how I decided to enter that info. I think it was a New York expo panda, and it might have been discussed somewhere. Actually, it might be easy to find under the fake type somewhere, if it has been moved there. That might help us decide what we should do here, if there are remaining questions.
CC12636: 1989 1/4 oz gold panda New York expo NGC 69 Ultra Cameo.  Are you talking about this specimen?  It already had a DELETED problem and NGC also gave it a DELETED grade, I just don't know since when... so, I guess it's really a fake coin?  And slab? 
"...but the greatest of these is love." -1 Corinthians 13:13
 

Offline badon

Re: How will CC handle fake coins?
« Reply #9 on: 2013 Jul 22, 11:44:34 PM »
You can just use "Fake" as the problem for all fake coins, and you can record the exact thing that the NGC info says separately in the article information, along with the screenshot to prove it. Copying and pasting NGC's info phrases will make the coins searchable. Other than that, it's probably not very important, because all of it just means "Fake". The place to mention these facts is in the CCT4091 type, like you said. Then, maybe you can just record it there once, along with mentioning a few examples, and then there won't be any need to record all that for every specimen. Now that I think of it, only recording it in CCT4091 will make it so any search for those changing phrases NGC uses to indicate "Fake" will all lead people directly to a summary of everything we know about them, including the history of NGC's changes, and some example specimens. That will be very informative.

NGC doesn't record fake slabs because they're not NGC's slabs. Sometimes there is a genuine coin and slab, and the fakers copied the certification number to use on a fake slab. In that case, it's good to screenshot, save images, and record everything there is to know about the coins. In the case of fakes, I have in the past disregarded copyrights and just saved all the full-resolution images. I think the interest of the public for us to report these facts constitutes fair use, even though we're using the full size original photo. It's much the same as what a journalist would do when finding evidence of a crime - they publish it in full resolution, with no regard for copyright laws, which probably don't apply in that case.

I say go for it, save full resolution original photographs of fakes if the photos aren't already on NGC's site. For fake slabs of coins that NGC never truly certified, those photos you find may be the only evidence that they exist, and the only images available to help people learn what they look like. We must preserve them. If we get copyright complaints, we can decide what to do when it happens. Until then, I think the most important thing is to preserve the information, since we are essentially journalists recording factual, verifiable information in this case.
 

Offline Jeru

Re: How will CC handle fake coins?
« Reply #10 on: 2013 Jul 23, 12:20:57 AM »
Crystal.

Thanks!
"...but the greatest of these is love." -1 Corinthians 13:13
 

Offline Jeru

Re: How will CC handle fake coins?
« Reply #11 on: 2013 Jul 24, 06:22:19 PM »
Here: CCT4091: Fake
"...but the greatest of these is love." -1 Corinthians 13:13