Author Topic: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499  (Read 387 times)

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Offline pandamonium

1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« on: 2018 Oct 11, 03:55:50 AM »
1984 PF 70 & 69 Silver Pagoda set w/ box   $3,499   Sold                         Ebay 183470427809    see photo.    Is this the only ONE PF 70 silver pagoda?.....

Edit by Jeru: Linkify
« Last Edit: 2018 Oct 24, 10:45:04 PM by Jeru »
 

Offline andrewlee10

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #1 on: 2018 Oct 11, 10:51:19 PM »
1984 China Pagoda Silver Non-Fiat Coin Set Of 4

No bidder end in 10 hours pagoda silver

Edit by Jeru: Removed broken formatted tags. Linkify
Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2018 Dec 23, 10:17:15 AM by badon »
 

Offline pandamonium

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #2 on: 2018 Oct 13, 03:40:33 AM »
The OMP silver pagoda set did not sell.    Hopefully will be relisted.    The 84 silver pagoda debate is still affecting prices/demand.     However, there is a group of collectors/dealers that buy silver pagodas when possible.    The China Mint mintage numbers of 260 sets are just too low to argue w/.   

The PF 70 silver pagoda is one of one.      I know the market does not agree, but prices are low so now is the time to buy rare Chinese.    Wish the PF 70 was mine......
 

Offline andrewlee10

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #3 on: 2018 Oct 17, 01:52:23 AM »
pagoda NGC PF69.


will have photo of 2014-2018 sold transactions in china in few days

Offline andrewlee10

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #4 on: 2018 Oct 18, 10:31:50 PM »
Pagoda silver PF69 set sold in china since 2014 to 2018 in RMB. USD exchange rate is 1 USD : 6.9 Yuan.


Those whale price in ebay is crazy.


Dealers must earn for living so add 20-25 % reasonable due to paypal fee, ebay fee and insurance of shipping.


Offline pandamonium

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #5 on: 2018 Oct 19, 02:35:24 PM »
You are missing the whole point.     $3,499 for the 84 PF 70 & 3 PF 69 silver pagoda set is reasonable.     There is only ONE PF 70 silver pagoda.   The PF 69 sets you found in China are priced from about $1,650 to $3,100 USD.      NONE have a PF 70, there is only one that i know of.      84 Silver Pagodas and other MCC are still undervalued so now is the time to buy....

That is one awesome, big gold coin, is it yours?    Has got to be rare.    I see more bids and purchases for big gold. (Edit by badon: pandamonium is replying to a post that got split to a different topic: Re: 1989 20 oz gold PRC 40th anniversary NGC 69 UC)

See photos of my 1911 50C  VF Details  Yunnan silver dragon  Enviro damage    $22  Sold.       Poor condititon but genuine/new holder/very cheap.    The Chinese silver dollar market is probably the oldest and most studied of all Chinese fiat coins/non-fiat coins.     Chinese silver dollars are not cheap.   The next in line is the 50 Cent silvers.      These Yunnan 50 C are rising in asking price and cheap 99 cent auctions are rare now.     See more demand for small silver dragons, 20C 10C, etc...


Edit by badon: Replies to this post were split to new topic: Re: 1989 20 oz gold PRC 40th anniversary NGC 69 UC.
Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin, coin = fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2018 Dec 23, 11:48:25 AM by badon »
 

Offline RhodiumPanda

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #6 on: 2018 Oct 19, 05:07:21 PM »
I guess the morale of the Pagoda story is that they have dropped in China from $3K range to the sub $2K range for full PF69 sets in the last 4 years.  That means that I overpaid for a full set of PF69's at $4K in Oct 2015, although it has a perfect original box and COA - which is probably worth $200 or more.   $4K felt cheap compared to the $20-$25K that they supposedly went for in 2011/2012.

I feel far, far better about the 199 mintage Nanjing Pandas, 208 mintage 5th Expos, 299 mintage 4th Expos that I'm paying about 1/4 as much per coin as the Pagodas are still worth at similar to slightly lower mintages (if the Pagodas are really 280 - the books and COA all say 1000).   These modern non-fiat coins have 70% - 233% more silver as an added bonus (30g or 60g at 999 vs 20g at 90%).

I'm not that bummed about buying the Pagoda set for $4K (it is a nice piece of history) but I'd buy the far, far rarer and much bigger, purer and nicer recent panda non-fiat coins at an 80% discount to the current Pagoda prices.  It is like buying Rhodium for under $700, 2-3 years ago in comparison.

Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2018 Dec 23, 11:50:27 AM by badon »
 

Offline pandamonium

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #7 on: 2018 Oct 20, 04:40:28 AM »
I understand your point of view but the market wants the early years.      For example the photos of my Yunnan for $22, two more got listed on ebay same grade or close for $115 and $150 just after mine came in the mail.       It looks to me that these 100 yr old Empire small silver dragons are running out of supply while demand is still good.     Many MCC are still flat.     1984 silver pagodas are a great cheap buy for long term hold.    Several members here are buying them up and holding them.       The new issue, low mint non-fiat coins have many good attributes but the market will demand the early year first.    Like badon says, it is always good to hold and never sell.     Many collectors chase hot coins but i like the undervalued ones the best.    In time all Chinese fiat coins/non-fiat coins will be hot coins..... 

Have stated many times the world will wake up to Chinese money.     Bullionstar.com says China owns 20,000 tons of gold, KWN says 30,000 tons of gold.     Even Europe wants the Yuan not USD.     The world is back to buying gold/silver so when will supply run out?....

jsmineset    RT News   "Oil priced $400 in yuan, ......"       Saudi Arabia has warned the US they will turn to Russia and price oil in the Yuan that will bankrupt the USD overnight.....         

Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin, coin = fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2018 Dec 23, 11:53:54 AM by badon »
 

Offline andrewlee10

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #8 on: 2018 Oct 21, 03:41:11 AM »
I guess the morale of the Pagoda story is that they have dropped in China from $3K range to the sub $2K range for full PF69 sets in the last 4 years.  That means that I overpaid for a full set of PF69's at $4K in Oct 2015, although it has a perfect original box and COA - which is probably worth $200 or more.   $4K felt cheap compared to the $20-$25K that they supposedly went for in 2011/2012.

I feel far, far better about the 199 mintage Nanjing Pandas, 208 mintage 5th Expos, 299 mintage 4th Expos that I'm paying about 1/4 as much per coin as the Pagodas are still worth at similar to slightly lower mintages (if the Pagodas are really 280 - the books and COA all say 1000).   These modern medals have 70% - 233% more silver as an added bonus (30g or 60g at 999 vs 20g at 90%).

I'm not that bummed about buying the Pagoda set for $4K (it is a nice piece of history) but I'd buy the far, far rarer and much bigger, purer and nicer recent panda medals at an 80% discount to the current Pagoda prices.  It is like buying Rhodium for under $700, 2-3 years ago in comparison.


You have overpaid 45% vs china price. You need to hold it and wait for stronger market. Pagoda and gold fish are one of the signature item as my personal view BUT still not as famous and good as greatwall.


Greatwall silver has down from 8K to 3K which is 2.66 times. However, pagoda has down from 6.25 times which is exceptional high (i.e 25K to 4K in oversea market non china). I personally view this as type of scheme been set up by group of people. Were all people involve do it intentionally and unintentionally. There are both which some do not get any financial benefits BUT get the blame fully.


Many foreigners especially American have sucking the pagoda at high price. However, it still available for sell in china. As greatwall silver which I see it in overseas auction only and not for china so often.


I like pagoda and gold fish which I eye on china market availability and will buy pagoda while it is at 1.7K for PF69.


In fact, berlin panda 50g, Macao coin show panda, moon panda panda exp 1, 2 & 3, classical garden, mammoth and bird lizard, ultra high mintage mint for exchange, antique brass & copper 2 lovely panda & some others are scam which few group of mastermind make the things happen like pagoda. However, it been expose faster than pagoda which fail after 4th years. The price down so significantly in overseas market and local market.


This is especially true for panda expo 1 & 2 and classical garden which local market slam. Collector no longer trust them which lead to keep reducing mintage for panda exp 4,5 & 6 and garden after summer resort. However, I view classical garden are very well done from the 1 st one till summer palace even the mintage is higher than the current one. BUT it is pretty which their scheme been collapse and expose because some of the members cannot hold the item without capital and dump their stock market close to bullion price plus 10 -20% for classical garden last few weeks in china. I did post the photo in this forum of it. This also consistent which the active & aggressive promoters and hypers of this classical garden have went quit of this series out of sudden before these news been expose. This tell you something and food of thought. They been make use by the mastermind and know it early ? so they stop helping in hyping ? or ????


What a pity which a good series ruin by themselves !!! However, I still view the top pop of NGC of those series with less than 10 with still get a fortune price. It is worth to get it while the price is low.


Many news and information is not available in forum to foreigners if you do not write mandarin. Plus many hypers and bumper tell half information even they know full information. One UK utube person is one of them. He been quite for China stuff now.


so well careful of information available in forum. You will take long time to know the so call expert is provide you half true information which likely lead you for wrong purchasing decision making. However, you are mature adult which you cannot blame others when you suffer loss. None use a gun to point to your head to force you pay and buy it.


I have 3 high grade set in classical garden and pay a huge price on it BUT I do not owe the 99 mintage one which is obvious a scam. Someone is desperately to sell it now. It been hype to 2K for PF69 per pc BUT drop till 650 per piece in ebay by dragonzheng in 2017 if not wrong BUT rarely see it now. How much you will pay now?


PCGS grading fee cost 16-22. Sell a PCGS coin at ebay at 22 a say wow lol. It is a loss not even cover the grading fee, ebay fee and shipping fee except someone buy PCGS in ebay less than 18 to list which just nice to breakeven.


Many industries have bad horses which is no exceptional for coin industry. However they are too many bad horses in coin industries. This just happen in China for North korea coins for last few days. 2 distributors fight each others aggressively by citing each others selling fake coin. It is dumb and no logic to fake coins which sell not high and identify less than 500 pieces coins with 10 designs. This means a faker make 10 minting die to mint 500 fake coins. The total revenue of the seller not even able to cover the 10 minting dies cost. It makes no sense and the distributors can make article and spread all this news in coin community. He is an expert of North korea coin and act as PCGS informal consultant. This tell you the dark side of coin industries.     


However, not all are bad horse which you need more careful in reading between the line and not blame others after you make decision of buying while you loss money. You do not give them money when you are profit from it.


   

Offline badon

 

Offline badon

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #10 on: 2018 Dec 23, 11:27:23 AM »
1984 China Pagoda Silver Non-Fiat Coin Set Of 4

No bidder end in 10 hours pagoda silver

The OMP silver pagoda set did not sell.    Hopefully will be relisted.   

IT got relisted a couple of times, and then you noted it when it sold for the high auction starting price of $1199.95:

1984  Silver Pagoda 4 pc  silver set   OMP box   $1,199.95  Sold                                Ebay 392155022331...very cheap..

The box looks very nice, and it's probably worth up to $200 by itself. These coins might have sold for double this price if they got certified with a 69 grade from NGC or PCGS. Since there is a genuine silver plate version that is MUCH less valuable, but hard to distinguish from the very rare original solid silver version, people are rightly wary of buying uncertified coins. I didn't look closely at the coins to verify their type and authenticity, but I assume they're the rare ones, and thus I think whoever bought them could possibly make some money on them. They were priced fairly for being uncertified.
 

Offline badon

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #11 on: 2018 Dec 23, 12:03:31 PM »
1984 PF 70 & 69 Silver Pagoda set w/ box   $3,499   Sold                         Ebay 183470427809    see photo.    Is this the only ONE PF 70 silver pagoda?.....

The 84 silver pagoda debate is still affecting prices/demand.     However, there is a group of collectors/dealers that buy silver pagodas when possible.    The China Mint mintage numbers of 260 sets are just too low to argue w/.   

The PF 70 silver pagoda is one of one.      I know the market does not agree, but prices are low so now is the time to buy rare Chinese.    Wish the PF 70 was mine......


Pagoda silver PF69 set sold in china since 2014 to 2018 in RMB. USD exchange rate is 1 USD : 6.9 Yuan.


Those whale price in ebay is crazy.


Dealers must earn for living so add 20-25 % reasonable due to paypal fee, ebay fee and insurance of shipping.

You are missing the whole point.     $3,499 for the 84 PF 70 & 3 PF 69 silver pagoda set is reasonable.     There is only ONE PF 70 silver pagoda.   The PF 69 sets you found in China are priced from about $1,650 to $3,100 USD.      NONE have a PF 70, there is only one that i know of.      84 Silver Pagodas and other MCC are still undervalued so now is the time to buy....

andrewlee10 isn't missing the point, he's just saying the ebay fees add a lot to the price compared to China prices. Also, the China prices are higher than you calculated. At the 1 USD for 6.9 yuan exchange rate, the lowest price he showed in his screenshots is $1971, not $1650. All the other prices are higher than that $1971 price, so I wouldn't take that as the price you would be likely get if you wanted to buy a set. You would have to get lucky to get it that cheap.

Also, it's worth pointing out the ebay set with the 70 grade coin did NOT sell for $3499. The ebay listing says "This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available." That usually means someone bought it off-ebay for a lower price. There is no way to know how much lower the price was.

That said, even if the price was the full $3499, I agree with you, it is a reasonable price. It's not crazy. It's not far above what others would be willing to pay for it. Although it wasn't an auction, I think it's still good remind ourselves being the highest bidder means no one else will pay as much. I also agree the 70 grade coin in the set makes it VERY desirable. I have spent WAY more money chasing truly spectacular 70's for my own collection.

Maybe someday that 70 alone will be worth more than the entire $3499 asking price for the whole set.
 

Offline badon

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #12 on: 2018 Dec 23, 12:49:06 PM »
I guess the morale of the Pagoda story is that they have dropped in China from $3K range to the sub $2K range for full PF69 sets in the last 4 years.  That means that I overpaid for a full set of PF69's at $4K in Oct 2015, although it has a perfect original box and COA - which is probably worth $200 or more.   $4K felt cheap compared to the $20-$25K that they supposedly went for in 2011/2012.

I feel far, far better about the 199 mintage Nanjing Pandas, 208 mintage 5th Expos, 299 mintage 4th Expos that I'm paying about 1/4 as much per coin as the Pagodas are still worth at similar to slightly lower mintages (if the Pagodas are really 280 - the books and COA all say 1000).   These modern non-fiat coins have 70% - 233% more silver as an added bonus (30g or 60g at 999 vs 20g at 90%).

I'm not that bummed about buying the Pagoda set for $4K (it is a nice piece of history) but I'd buy the far, far rarer and much bigger, purer and nicer recent panda non-fiat coins at an 80% discount to the current Pagoda prices.  It is like buying Rhodium for under $700, 2-3 years ago in comparison.

I feel your pain about losing money on the $4000 pagoda set price. I bought my set at $6000! I lost my shirt on that one, at least on paper. Since I'm not selling, it doesn't really matter. It's never fun to watch your investments decline, even if it's only on paper, which is yet another great reason to diversify. While some go down, you can focus your attention on other investments.

The biggest reason I'm not worried about losing money on my pagoda set is because I think I'm going to make a ton of money on it in the future. They are some of the finest coins China has ever minted. They're truly world class works of art, especially because they're hand engraved. The pagodas are iconic in Chinese culture, that's why there's a pagoda on the reverse of every main series fiat panda coin - the most popular Chinese coin series in the world.

The fact the pagodas are hand engraved is the one thing that assures they have a bright future. Being hand engraved prominently distinguishes them from all the other mass-produced world coins trying to get the attention of collectors. I think it's even more important than the mintage and surviving population, which are already more than low enough to positively affect their investment potential. When you buy a coin made from hand engraved master dies, you are truly buying a work of art unlike any other. Someone spent a year of their life ("off and on") engraving those microscopic details into those dies with tiny steel chisels!

Art is an emotional thing. It doesn't have any rules, and it can do anything imaginable. Very few coins have the potential to be considered national treasures someday, like China's hand engraved coins that have recognition by UNESCO as one of Mankind's intangible cultural heritages.

I agree about the Nanjing pandas. The Nanjing mint is like the USA's Carson City mint. It has a reputation for rarity and high quality, so coins from those mints benefit from that reputation. The Carson City mint famously produced a lot of Morgan dollars with cameo features indistinguishable from the best proof coins of their era. The reason why was because no one took the Carson City mint seriously as a mint. They were minting coins nobody wanted that immediately went into storage.

The only purpose of the Carson City mint was to monetize the huge surplus of silver coming out of the Comstock Lode in Nevada. So, to amuse themselves while making coins few people will ever see, they spent extra time and effort polishing and preparing dies so the first few coins out of millions would look like a million bucks.

The Nanjing Mint is no different. They hold a similar lowly place among China's official government mints, and the coins they make are almost entirely unknown, and exceptional in quality. Like those few proof-like Morgan dollars, mintages are low, and the quality is exceptional. And, most importantly, if you collect coins from the other mints, you must have the ones from Nanjing (or Carson City) to complete the collection!
 

Offline badon

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #13 on: 2018 Dec 23, 02:03:30 PM »
Pagoda and gold fish are one of the signature item as my personal view BUT still not as famous and good as greatwall.

[...]

Many foreigners especially American have sucking the pagoda at high price. However, it still available for sell in china. As greatwall silver which I see it in overseas auction only and not for china so often.


I like pagoda and gold fish which I eye on china market availability and will buy pagoda while it is at 1.7K for PF69.

The reason foreigners are sucking the 1984 pagodas out of the market is because they have experience with mature coin markets, and they know the hand engraved coins are undervalued in China. The foreigners have always been several steps ahead of the market in China. As the coin market matures in China, prices are going up, and that's how foreigners are making money on the coins they bought before the Chinese coin market was mature enough to be interested in them.

Greatwall silver has down from 8K to 3K which is 2.66 times. However, pagoda has down from 6.25 times which is exceptional high (i.e 25K to 4K in oversea market non china). I personally view this as type of scheme been set up by group of people. Were all people involve do it intentionally and unintentionally. There are both which some do not get any financial benefits BUT get the blame fully.


[...]


In fact, berlin panda 50g, Macao coin show panda, moon panda panda exp 1, 2 & 3, classical garden, mammoth and bird lizard, ultra high mintage mint for exchange, antique brass & copper 2 lovely panda & some others are scam which few group of mastermind make the things happen like pagoda. However, it been expose faster than pagoda which fail after 4th years. The price down so significantly in overseas market and local market.


This is especially true for panda expo 1 & 2 and classical garden which local market slam. Collector no longer trust them which lead to keep reducing mintage for panda exp 4,5 & 6 and garden after summer resort. However, I view classical garden are very well done from the 1 st one till summer palace even the mintage is higher than the current one. BUT it is pretty which their scheme been collapse and expose because some of the members cannot hold the item without capital and dump their stock market close to bullion price plus 10 -20% for classical garden last few weeks in china. I did post the photo in this forum of it. This also consistent which the active & aggressive promoters and hypers of this classical garden have went quit of this series out of sudden before these news been expose. This tell you something and food of thought. They been make use by the mastermind and know it early ? so they stop helping in hyping ? or ????

That sounds like a lot of false accusations.

Many industries have bad horses which is no exceptional for coin industry. However they are too many bad horses in coin industries. This just happen in China for North korea coins for last few days. 2 distributors fight each others aggressively by citing each others selling fake coin. It is dumb and no logic to fake coins which sell not high and identify less than 500 pieces coins with 10 designs. This means a faker make 10 minting die to mint 500 fake coins. The total revenue of the seller not even able to cover the 10 minting dies cost. It makes no sense and the distributors can make article and spread all this news in coin community. He is an expert of North korea coin and act as PCGS informal consultant. This tell you the dark side of coin industries.     

Yep, a lot of false accusations. Why are false accusations of crimes so common? Because people are eager to believe them. I am an expert, and even I have not been able to avoid the wrong belief that a crime has been committed. I used to think the silver and gold plated versions of the 1984 silver goldfish and 1984 silver pagodas were all fake. They were produced using techniques mints do not normally use. They had many features common to fake coins. But NGC contacted the mint, and they verified the coins were genuine. They are weird, but they are official, not fake.

This new information gave people the opportunity to buy silver and gold plated hand engraved coins that were not so expensive as the solid silver originals. Prices went down for the solid silver originals, because many people were no longer interested in them when they could save money buying the cheaper versions. No mystery there.

If someone like me can make that kind of mistake, anyone can. NGC and PCGS have both authenticated and certified fake coins before. They have even been deceived by at least one true fraud conspiracy by dealers that I know about. But that has not happened yet in the Chinese coin market, as far as I am aware.

However, not all are bad horse which you need more careful in reading between the line and not blame others after you make decision of buying while you loss money. You do not give them money when you are profit from it.

I have never seen any "scam" or other kind of conspiracy for financial fraud crimes in the Chinese coin market, not even in China. 1984 silver pagoda prices dropped in 2012 at the same time the whole market dropped. No "scam" required.

Prices of Panda expos, Berlin expo pandas, Macao expo pandas, Moon festival pandas, etc dropped partly because the events they were minted for have ended and faded into memories. The Classical Gardens series has ended, so promotions for them ended too. The mammoths and the bird lizard are from the Extinct Animals series, which if I remember correctly, was ended after being canceled due to lack of profits from the high cost of minting (correct me if I'm wrong).

Coins are commercially manufactured products like any other. They are subjected to the whims of marketing and fashion. They can go in and out of style, and prices will drop or rise accordingly. New coins are actively promoted, and take attention away from old coins that are NOT being actively promoted anymore. There is no "scam" involved to make those things happen, and everyone participating in sales of those coins is honest. Coins are very illiquid, and financial crimes are not required to make prices drop. If there are 2 coins and only 1 buyer, the second coin will sell for less money.

Poor liquidity makes it so the coin market is actually very resistant to manipulation, much more so than more liquid markets. For example, if there is usually only 2 or 3 buyers for a particular coin type at any given time, but you buy 10 of them with the hope of driving prices up, you might succeed in driving prices up. But, when you try to sell 10 coins to 3 buyers, you will lose money on 7 of your coins. I have seen people try this even after I have warned them not to. They always lose money.

The people who earn profits on their coin collections are not the ones who panic when they see prices are dropping. The people who earn profits on their coin collections are the ones who don't care when they see prices are dropping, because they're not interested in selling.

There are 2 ways to make money in the coin market: Be a dealer, or be an investor. Being a dealer requires a lot of work. If you don't work, you won't make money. Being an investor requires a lot of patience. If you don't have patience, you won't make money.
 

Offline badon

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #14 on: 2018 Dec 23, 02:22:41 PM »
Screenshot and images from the sale of the 70 grade Songyue pagoda coin.
 

Offline andrewlee10

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #15 on: 2018 Dec 26, 12:01:15 AM »
1984 PF 70 & 69 Silver Pagoda set w/ box   $3,499   Sold                         Ebay 183470427809    see photo.    Is this the only ONE PF 70 silver pagoda?.....

The 84 silver pagoda debate is still affecting prices/demand.     However, there is a group of collectors/dealers that buy silver pagodas when possible.    The China Mint mintage numbers of 260 sets are just too low to argue w/.   

The PF 70 silver pagoda is one of one.      I know the market does not agree, but prices are low so now is the time to buy rare Chinese.    Wish the PF 70 was mine......


Pagoda silver PF69 set sold in china since 2014 to 2018 in RMB. USD exchange rate is 1 USD : 6.9 Yuan.


Those whale price in ebay is crazy.


Dealers must earn for living so add 20-25 % reasonable due to paypal fee, ebay fee and insurance of shipping.

You are missing the whole point.     $3,499 for the 84 PF 70 & 3 PF 69 silver pagoda set is reasonable.     There is only ONE PF 70 silver pagoda.   The PF 69 sets you found in China are priced from about $1,650 to $3,100 USD.      NONE have a PF 70, there is only one that i know of.      84 Silver Pagodas and other MCC are still undervalued so now is the time to buy....

andrewlee10 isn't missing the point, he's just saying the ebay fees add a lot to the price compared to China prices. Also, the China prices are higher than you calculated. At the 1 USD for 6.9 yuan exchange rate, the lowest price he showed in his screenshots is $1971, not $1650. All the other prices are higher than that $1971 price, so I wouldn't take that as the price you would be likely get if you wanted to buy a set. You would have to get lucky to get it that cheap.

Also, it's worth pointing out the ebay set with the 70 grade coin did NOT sell for $3499. The ebay listing says "This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available." That usually means someone bought it off-ebay for a lower price. There is no way to know how much lower the price was.

That said, even if the price was the full $3499, I agree with you, it is a reasonable price. It's not crazy. It's not far above what others would be willing to pay for it. Although it wasn't an auction, I think it's still good remind ourselves being the highest bidder means no one else will pay as much. I also agree the 70 grade coin in the set makes it VERY desirable. I have spent WAY more money chasing truly spectacular 70's for my own collection.

Maybe someday that 70 alone will be worth more than the entire $3499 asking price for the whole set.


will happen when market pick up.

Offline andrewlee10

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #16 on: 2018 Dec 26, 12:09:49 AM »
I guess the morale of the Pagoda story is that they have dropped in China from $3K range to the sub $2K range for full PF69 sets in the last 4 years.  That means that I overpaid for a full set of PF69's at $4K in Oct 2015, although it has a perfect original box and COA - which is probably worth $200 or more.   $4K felt cheap compared to the $20-$25K that they supposedly went for in 2011/2012.

I feel far, far better about the 199 mintage Nanjing Pandas, 208 mintage 5th Expos, 299 mintage 4th Expos that I'm paying about 1/4 as much per coin as the Pagodas are still worth at similar to slightly lower mintages (if the Pagodas are really 280 - the books and COA all say 1000).   These modern non-fiat coins have 70% - 233% more silver as an added bonus (30g or 60g at 999 vs 20g at 90%).

I'm not that bummed about buying the Pagoda set for $4K (it is a nice piece of history) but I'd buy the far, far rarer and much bigger, purer and nicer recent panda non-fiat coins at an 80% discount to the current Pagoda prices.  It is like buying Rhodium for under $700, 2-3 years ago in comparison.

I feel your pain about losing money on the $4000 pagoda set price. I bought my set at $6000! I lost my shirt on that one, at least on paper. Since I'm not selling, it doesn't really matter. It's never fun to watch your investments decline, even if it's only on paper, which is yet another great reason to diversify. While some go down, you can focus your attention on other investments.

The biggest reason I'm not worried about losing money on my pagoda set is because I think I'm going to make a ton of money on it in the future. They are some of the finest coins China has ever minted. They're truly world class works of art, especially because they're hand engraved. The pagodas are iconic in Chinese culture, that's why there's a pagoda on the reverse of every main series fiat panda coin - the most popular Chinese coin series in the world.

The fact the pagodas are hand engraved is the one thing that assures they have a bright future. Being hand engraved prominently distinguishes them from all the other mass-produced world coins trying to get the attention of collectors. I think it's even more important than the mintage and surviving population, which are already more than low enough to positively affect their investment potential. When you buy a coin made from hand engraved master dies, you are truly buying a work of art unlike any other. Someone spent a year of their life ("off and on") engraving those microscopic details into those dies with tiny steel chisels!

Art is an emotional thing. It doesn't have any rules, and it can do anything imaginable. Very few coins have the potential to be considered national treasures someday, like China's hand engraved coins that have recognition by UNESCO as one of Mankind's intangible cultural heritages.

I agree about the Nanjing pandas. The Nanjing mint is like the USA's Carson City mint. It has a reputation for rarity and high quality, so coins from those mints benefit from that reputation. The Carson City mint famously produced a lot of Morgan dollars with cameo features indistinguishable from the best proof coins of their era. The reason why was because no one took the Carson City mint seriously as a mint. They were minting coins nobody wanted that immediately went into storage.

The only purpose of the Carson City mint was to monetize the huge surplus of silver coming out of the Comstock Lode in Nevada. So, to amuse themselves while making coins few people will ever see, they spent extra time and effort polishing and preparing dies so the first few coins out of millions would look like a million bucks.

The Nanjing Mint is no different. They hold a similar lowly place among China's official government mints, and the coins they make are almost entirely unknown, and exceptional in quality. Like those few proof-like Morgan dollars, mintages are low, and the quality is exceptional. And, most importantly, if you collect coins from the other mints, you must have the ones from Nanjing (or Carson City) to complete the collection!


Agreed if you have strong holding power which you need to wait for tide up. As long as you not buy at 25K who is far more crying if they have no holding power. Flippers and dumper tend to loss more than long term holder with financial power. As you guys have eyes opened which few flippers have loss their pants, reputation and hide themselves up after failing in hyping by saying I have no financial benefits from xxx.


None of us got crystal ball. However, many will blame others while they loss money BUT no blame themselves. They give no single to others while pocket in profit. This is human nature which all are others problems NOT themselves.

Offline andrewlee10

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #17 on: 2018 Dec 26, 12:14:08 AM »
I agree about the Nanjing pandas. The Nanjing mint is like the USA's Carson City mint. It has a reputation for rarity and high quality, so coins from those mints benefit from that reputation. The Carson City mint famously produced a lot of Morgan dollars with cameo features indistinguishable from the best proof coins of their era. The reason why was because no one took the Carson City mint seriously as a mint. They were minting coins nobody wanted that immediately went into storage.

The only purpose of the Carson City mint was to monetize the huge surplus of silver coming out of the Comstock Lode in Nevada. So, to amuse themselves while making coins few people will ever see, they spent extra time and effort polishing and preparing dies so the first few coins out of millions would look like a million bucks.

The Nanjing Mint is no different. They hold a similar lowly place among China's official government mints, and the coins they make are almost entirely unknown, and exceptional in quality. Like those few proof-like Morgan dollars, mintages are low, and the quality is exceptional. And, most importantly, if you collect coins from the other mints, you must have the ones from Nanjing (or Carson City) to complete the collection!

Take note not all Nanjing Mint series and products are equal and same. None of any mints in eastern and western are capable to copy and do the same series of Nanjing Mint sponsor by me. Even other series of Nanjing Mint unable to copy mine series till now.

Edit by badon: Fixed quote.
« Last Edit: 2018 Dec 27, 12:14:23 PM by badon »
 

Offline andrewlee10

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #18 on: 2018 Dec 26, 12:17:29 AM »
Pagoda and gold fish are one of the signature item as my personal view BUT still not as famous and good as greatwall.

[...]

Many foreigners especially American have sucking the pagoda at high price. However, it still available for sell in china. As greatwall silver which I see it in overseas auction only and not for china so often.


I like pagoda and gold fish which I eye on china market availability and will buy pagoda while it is at 1.7K for PF69.

The reason foreigners are sucking the 1984 pagodas out of the market is because they have experience with mature coin markets, and they know the hand engraved coins are undervalued in China. The foreigners have always been several steps ahead of the market in China. As the coin market matures in China, prices are going up, and that's how foreigners are making money on the coins they bought before the Chinese coin market was mature enough to be interested in them.



Probably you and me are no longer alive to enjoy it. I am not preparing to pass down my collections to my beneficial which I rather cash it and enjoy while I am alive.

Offline andrewlee10

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #19 on: 2018 Dec 26, 12:26:48 AM »
[
Greatwall silver has down from 8K to 3K which is 2.66 times. However, pagoda has down from 6.25 times which is exceptional high (i.e 25K to 4K in oversea market non china). I personally view this as type of scheme been set up by group of people. Were all people involve do it intentionally and unintentionally. There are both which some do not get any financial benefits BUT get the blame fully.


[...]


In fact, berlin panda 50g, Macao coin show panda, moon panda panda exp 1, 2 & 3, classical garden, mammoth and bird lizard, ultra high mintage mint for exchange, antique brass & copper 2 lovely panda & some others are scam which few group of mastermind make the things happen like pagoda. However, it been expose faster than pagoda which fail after 4th years. The price down so significantly in overseas market and local market.


This is especially true for panda expo 1 & 2 and classical garden which local market slam. Collector no longer trust them which lead to keep reducing mintage for panda exp 4,5 & 6 and garden after summer resort. However, I view classical garden are very well done from the 1 st one till summer palace even the mintage is higher than the current one. BUT it is pretty which their scheme been collapse and expose because some of the members cannot hold the item without capital and dump their stock market close to bullion price plus 10 -20% for classical garden last few weeks in china. I did post the photo in this forum of it. This also consistent which the active & aggressive promoters and hypers of this classical garden have went quit of this series out of sudden before these news been expose. This tell you something and food of thought. They been make use by the mastermind and know it early ? so they stop helping in hyping ? or ??? ?

That sounds like a lot of false accusations.



Put the evidences on it which above are not correct. Informal North Korea coin PCGS consultant can made the scam. Why not the this group of sponsor? So many group chat talk about them haha.



Offline andrewlee10

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #20 on: 2018 Dec 26, 12:40:06 AM »

I have never seen any "scam" or other kind of conspiracy for financial fraud crimes in the Chinese coin market, not even in China. 1984 silver pagoda prices dropped in 2012 at the same time the whole market dropped. No "scam" required.

Prices of Panda expos, Berlin expo pandas, Macao expo pandas, Moon festival pandas, etc dropped partly because the events they were minted for have ended and faded into memories. The Classical Gardens series has ended, so promotions for them ended too. The mammoths and the bird lizard are from the Extinct Animals series, which if I remember correctly, was ended after being canceled due to lack of profits from the high cost of minting (correct me if I'm wrong).

Coins are commercially manufactured products like any other. They are subjected to the whims of marketing and fashion. They can go in and out of style, and prices will drop or rise accordingly. New coins are actively promoted, and take attention away from old coins that are NOT being actively promoted anymore. There is no "scam" involved to make those things happen, and everyone participating in sales of those coins is honest. Coins are very illiquid, and financial crimes are not required to make prices drop. If there are 2 coins and only 1 buyer, the second coin will sell for less money.

Poor liquidity makes it so the coin market is actually very resistant to manipulation, much more so than more liquid markets. For example, if there is usually only 2 or 3 buyers for a particular coin type at any given time, but you buy 10 of them with the hope of driving prices up, you might succeed in driving prices up. But, when you try to sell 10 coins to 3 buyers, you will lose money on 7 of your coins. I have seen people try this even after I have warned them not to. They always lose money.

The people who earn profits on their coin collections are not the ones who panic when they see prices are dropping. The people who earn profits on their coin collections are the ones who don't care when they see prices are dropping, because they're not interested in selling.

There are 2 ways to make money in the coin market: Be a dealer, or be an investor. Being a dealer requires a lot of work. If you don't work, you won't make money. Being an investor requires a lot of patience. If you don't have patience, you won't make money.


Panda expos & Classical garden series just ended in mid and end 2018 so the statements of no active promotion not correct.


Berlin Panda, Macao Expo panda, Moon Festive panda and extinct Animals series are all active and not ended at all.Thus, It is not correct too.


Did Greatwall silver and brass actively promote and new items !!!! It is not. Why the price stand and stable for so many decades and cycles?  Even price down compare to peak BUT it still stable compare to the series I mention above.


One of the sponsor of the 50G Berlin panda have admitted personally to me it is an unintentional scam. This the reason price down from 1700 for Pf69 to 200 of lowest. They sell at loss.


Offline andrewlee10

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #21 on: 2018 Dec 26, 12:53:40 AM »
sold 12.12.2018 which  PF69 & 1 PF68 at 8000 RMB inclusive shipping and all fees. USD1.2K


From 20K to 1.2 K 16.7 time down. Which china coin drop at this speed?

Offline badon

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #22 on: 2018 Dec 27, 12:07:19 PM »
From 20K to 1.2 K 16.7 time down. Which china coin drop at this speed?

I can think of a few:

1995 1 oz gold panda proof
2000 gold panda mirror ring set
1998 gold panda large date set

Many coins dropped a lot from their peak prices. There's nothing special about any one coin. They all dropped after the entire market weakened. No surprise there.
 

Offline badon

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #23 on: 2018 Dec 27, 12:11:32 PM »

I have never seen any "scam" or other kind of conspiracy for financial fraud crimes in the Chinese coin market, not even in China. 1984 silver pagoda prices dropped in 2012 at the same time the whole market dropped. No "scam" required.

One of the sponsor of the 50G Berlin panda have admitted personally to me it is an unintentional scam. This the reason price down from 1700 for Pf69 to 200 of lowest. They sell at loss.

The word "scam" is not the right English word to use for that. "Scam" means illegal financial fraud. It does not mean price drop. Fraud is always intentional, price drops are not. You probably mean to say "unintentional price drop".
 

Offline andrewlee10

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #24 on: 2018 Dec 28, 03:14:10 AM »

I have never seen any "scam" or other kind of conspiracy for financial fraud crimes in the Chinese coin market, not even in China. 1984 silver pagoda prices dropped in 2012 at the same time the whole market dropped. No "scam" required.

One of the sponsor of the 50G Berlin panda have admitted personally to me it is an unintentional scam. This the reason price down from 1700 for Pf69 to 200 of lowest. They sell at loss.

The word "scam" is not the right English word to use for that. "Scam" means illegal financial fraud. It does not mean price drop. Fraud is always intentional, price drops are not. You probably mean to say "unintentional price drop".


Oxford dictionary states scam as “A dishonest scheme; a fraud”. Take note what so call dishonest scheme. It is a scheme which benefit certain group of people by dishonest act intentionally which also similar to a set up and fraud. The person who in the 50 g Berlin are American who are native English speaker. He himself admit it is a dishonest action and abandon the brand name set by the partnership. He feel regret and sorry on it. He agrees it is a scam. It is bullshit of unintentional price drop. Do you know who are the persons on the Berlin 50 g ? If yes make them out loudly. If no how you say it is unintentionally price drop?

Edit by Jeru: Removed broken formatted tags.
« Last Edit: 2019 Jan 06, 05:45:43 PM by Jeru »
 

Offline andrewlee10

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #25 on: 2018 Dec 28, 03:28:04 AM »
2000 1 oz gold panda mirror Ring sold recently at 2.2k. If 16.8 times drop as pagoda set which is 36.7 k at peak. Are you sure of 2000 1 oz gold panda mirror peak price at 36.7k ?

Offline andrewlee10

Re: 1984 silver pagoda 4 coin set NGC 69 70 box sold $3499
« Reply #26 on: 2018 Dec 28, 03:40:03 AM »
2014 transaction of the 2000 1 oz gold panda mirror sold at 4.3k which is dropping. 2.2 times not 16.7 times like pagoda. Even the peak at 2011 which I cannot believe 2000 1 oz gold panda sold at 36.7 k.


There is no record of transaction of auction I search for 2000 gold panda mirror at year 2011.


Overall china coin has dropped price but not as significant like pagoda.


It is just an intentionally set up as few well known china dealers admit it to me.