Author Topic: Largest UK coin magazine article: What 5 things to say about MCC and pandas?  (Read 1726 times)

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Offline numistacker

Guys for a while now I have been saying that the health of this market is about getting a wider spectrum of people interested and excited about MCC and that should be a #1 proirity both in the west and in China.

I have approached Token Publishing who publish the largest circulation numismatic magazine in the UK - Coin News to see if they would be interested in publishing an article on Panda Collecting. They have replied today to say that they have never done such an article and they know there is a level of interest so would I like to write it.

So I am saying to all of you converts - if you could say 5 things to a non MCC non panda  - non modern perhaps - traditional British collector about the merits of MCC and Pandas in general.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

Now is your chance to help to build the audience for MCC/Pandas. What are they key points you would make?

 
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Offline pandamonium

It was posted that during the 1980's investment capitol flooded into the rare US coin market resulting in coin collectors becoming wealthy overnight.      Those US coin collectors are now in the rare Chinese coin/non-fiat coin market and the gains look much higher then rare US coins.....

China is now a wealthy country as they own the USA manufacturing and gold supply.     China has a gold army that searches for gold.   China also owns many of the world's top gold mines.    This is how China will tie the Yuan to gold and replace the USD as a reserve currency.....

Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin + meme.
« Last Edit: 2017 Feb 25, 05:58:52 PM by badon »
 

Offline Jens

Pandas have a higher WAF (Woman Acceptance Factor) than any other coin because they are so cute!
Much easier to sell to your wife than coins that show the head of some old fart  ;)
"You have to choose (as a voter) between trusting to the natural stability of gold and the natural stability of the honesty and intelligence of the members of the Government.
And, with due respect for these gentlemen, I advise you, as long as the Capitalist system lasts, to vote for gold."   - George Bernard Shaw -
 
The following users thanked this post: RhodiumPanda

Offline fuzzydice

Guys for a while now I have been saying that the health of this market is about getting a wider spectrum of people interested and excited about MCC and that should be a #1 proirity both in the west and in China.

I have approached Token Publishing who publish the largest circulation numismatic magazine in the UK - Coin News to see if they would be interested in publishing an article on Panda Collecting. They have replied today to say that they have never done such an article and they know there is a level of interest so would I like to write it.

So I am saying to all of you converts - if you could say 5 things to a non MCC non panda  - non modern perhaps - traditional British collector about the merits of MCC and Pandas in general.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

Now is your chance to help to build the audience for MCC/Pandas. What are they key points you would make?


Here are 5 points you could make:

1. MCC gives the collector huge variety and a lot of choices: different metals (gold,silver,brass,bronze, copper,platinum,palladium, bi- and tri-metallic), sizes (1 gram to 5 kilo), shapes (round, scallop, rectangle, oval), and designs (panda, non-panda, scenery, sports, architecture, culture). Panda design changes yearly, unlike other bullion series issued by other countries' govts.

2. Despite the large variety, MCC being a new market also offers impressive rarity--eg, entire issue of silver pandas is less than a single year of silver american eagles. Other new panda issues are even more rare than the main series.

3. MCC features some of the best and most innovative technical designs--eg, lunar designs imitated by other mints, panda/lunar theme, silver antiquing, ultra high relief non-fiat coins, metric weights. The mints of China have consistently been leaders in design and process innovation in numismatics.

4. Good investment potential with #2 and #3 above, an enormous population of potential mainland and overseas Chinese collectors, and the fact that it's a very nascent market that only began 2 or 3 decades ago (precious metals segment only began in 2003?)

5. Although profit potential is a good point to make, perhaps the biggest selling point is that MCC is also a good way to learn about and cherish the incredibly rich and interesting Chinese culture that has been around for thousands of years. There is a lot of history and culture encapsulated in the themes of some MCCs, such as the Great Wall, temple of heaven, dragon and phoenix, lunar cycle, art and artist, scenery designs, historical figures, just to name a few.

Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin.
Edit by badon: Fixed quote link after splitting to new topic.
« Last Edit: 2017 Feb 28, 05:38:45 PM by badon »
 
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Offline fuzzydice

Almost forgot to mention: there are lots of specific examples of high price appreciation in MCC. E.g., brass 1985 yuan panda going from Y cents to $10,000+ dollars; 1995 gold 1/2 oz panda rising to $20,000+, etc.Circulating fen coins would be another example.
 
The following users thanked this post: RhodiumPanda

Offline numistacker

Guys for a while now I have been saying that the health of this market is about getting a wider spectrum of people interested and excited about MCC and that should be a #1 proirity both in the west and in China.

I have approached Token Publishing who publish the largest circulation numismatic magazine in the UK - Coin News to see if they would be interested in publishing an article on Panda Collecting. They have replied today to say that they have never done such an article and they know there is a level of interest so would I like to write it.

So I am saying to all of you converts - if you could say 5 things to a non MCC non panda  - non modern perhaps - traditional British collector about the merits of MCC and Pandas in general.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

Now is your chance to help to build the audience for MCC/Pandas. What are they key points you would make?


Here are 5 points you could make:

1. MCC gives the collector huge variety and a lot of choices: different metals (gold,silver,brass,bronze, copper,platinum,palladium, bi- and tri-metallic), sizes (1 gram to 5 kilo), shapes (round, scallop, rectangle, oval), and designs (panda, non-panda, scenery, sports, architecture, culture). Panda design changes yearly, unlike other bullion series issued by other countries' govts.

2. Despite the large variety, MCC being a new market also offers impressive rarity--eg, entire issue of silver pandas is less than a single year of silver american eagles. Other new panda issues are even more rare than the main series.

3. MCC features some of the best and most innovative technical designs--eg, lunar designs imitated by other mints, panda/lunar theme, silver antiquing, ultra high relief non-fiat coins, metric weights. The mints of China have consistently been leaders in design and process innovation in numismatics.

4. Good investment potential with #2 and #3 above, an enormous population of potential mainland and overseas Chinese collectors, and the fact that it's a very nascent market that only began 2 or 3 decades ago (precious metals segment only began in 2003?)

5. Although profit potential is a good point to make, perhaps the biggest selling point is that MCC is also a good way to learn about and cherish the incredibly rich and interesting Chinese culture that has been around for thousands of years. There is a lot of history and culture encapsulated in the themes of some MCCs, such as the Great Wall, temple of heaven, dragon and phoenix, lunar cycle, art and artist, scenery designs, historical figures, just to name a few.

Thanks very much for the excellent ideas.

Edit by badon: Fixed quote.
Edit by badon: Fixed quote link after splitting to new topic.
« Last Edit: 2017 Feb 28, 05:39:12 PM by badon »
 
The following users thanked this post: RhodiumPanda

Offline RhodiumPanda

Guys for a while now I have been saying that the health of this market is about getting a wider spectrum of people interested and excited about MCC and that should be a #1 priority both in the west and in China.

I have approached Token Publishing who publish the largest circulation numismatic magazine in the UK - Coin News to see if they would be interested in publishing an article on Panda Collecting. They have replied today to say that they have never done such an article and they know there is a level of interest so would I like to write it.

So I am saying to all of you converts - if you could say 5 things to a non MCC non panda  - non modern perhaps - traditional British collector about the merits of MCC and Pandas in general.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

Now is your chance to help to build the audience for MCC/Pandas. What are they key points you would make?

Numistacker,
Thanks for taking this on.  I admire your initiative.  I agree with Jens and fuzzydice.  I experienced exactly what Jens is talking about with my wife collecting everything panda related since being a small child and I was a heavy silver investor / moderate coin collector.  We discovered silver pandas in the late 80’s and started trying to collect all the silver pandas by the late 90’s with Ebay.  I woke up to the China growth potential by 2004 and tried to get everything silver-panda related as well as extras.   

Following are the points I would make (use, copy, plagiarize as you see fit):
 
1.   The Fiat Silver Panda coin proofs made since 1983 have mintages ranging from 800 to 25,000 for proofs.  Compare this to Silver Eagle proof coins made since 1986 that have mintages ranging from 30,125 to 1,446,778  million for the proofs (only 1 being below 99,882). ( http://silvereagleguide.com/mintages/ )  These pandas fall generally in the price range of the proof Silver Eagles, but don’t reflect the panda's average 40X greater rarity.
2.   The Fiat Silver Panda coin non-proof’s made since 1989 have mintages ranging from 100,000 to 8 million for non-proof’s.  Compare this to Silver Eagle non-proof coins made since 1986 that have mintages ranging from 3,603,386 to 47,000,000.  The silver panda non-proof’s prices range from $3/coin more than Eagles to 3X as much for the rarer ones.  This still doesn’t reflect the non-proof panda’s average 30X greater rarity 
3.   The non-Fiat Silver Pandas made during 1984-1996 have mintages ranging from 99 to 4,000 and a proven track record for appreciation.  The rarest of these coins (The 1994 Munich Kilo appreciated from its $700 issue price to $85,000 for 1 sale in 2011), and is still worth $25,000+.  The second rarest (250 mintage 1997 12oz Munich) has gone from $400 to $25,000 in 2011 and still sells for $10,000+.
4.   The non-Fiat Silver, Brass and Gold Pandas made during 2012-2017 take rarity and design variety (not to mention value) to a new unprecedented level with prices still in the general range of the Silver Proof Eagles that are hundreds of times more common.  These recent non-Fiat coins range in mintage numbers of 18 for a 3rd gold Expo 1oz. panda to 2014 for a 15g Baby panda. Their prices fall in the range of the Silver Eagle proofs ($60-$5000), in spite of an average rarity 2,000X greater (200 average vs. 400,000 average mintages) and the more expensive ones being made of gold in the case of the pandas.  These coins have a far greater variety of sizes (15 g to 500 g) and finishes (antique, cameo proof, reverse cameo proof, high relief) than the simple proof and reverse proof Eagles, not to mention dozens of artistic designs vs 1 design for the Eagle.   These recent non-fiat pandas have yet to experience any significant price run-up that the earlier pandas did between 2003-2011.  They are still bargains.
5.   There have been over 200 panda designs in the last 35 years compared to exactly ONE Silver Eagle design.  This, in spite of the fact that the Silver Eagle has had roughly 500 Million Coins made compared to less than 70 Million Panda Coins across these 200+ designs.
6.     The only U.S. coins as rare as the recent 18-200 mintage pandas are the key date Morgan $'s and then it is only in the highest grades that the numbers for the Morgans get down to these recent panda mintages.  These key Morgans in higher grades are worth $10,000 to $250,000 when the number of coins graded gets to this range (18-200).  This is an indication of how immature the MCC market is.
7.     The Chinese economy is growing faster than any large economy and is arguably the largest economy in the world (if currency is adjusted) in spite of only modernizing within the last 30 years.  The U.S. economy has been modernized for 100+ years and the US coin market reached full maturity 35 years ago.  China's only started since then.  The potential growth difference going forward is staggering when the 4X greater population is combined with the 70 year later start in modernizing / embracing capitalism.

Bottom Line:  The Modern Chinese Coin market (and silver pandas in particular, since 1983) combines the lowest mintages of any modern coins with the biggest variety of designs and coin types of all from the biggest population, fastest growing country in the world. This market is far less mature than the U.S., Australian, UK, Canadian, Mexican, German and other coin markets with the number of collectors still tiny (esp. compared to the U.S.).  The Modern Chinese Coin market offers the greatest collectability and investment potential for any coin market ever.



Edit by badon: Fixed quote link after splitting to new topic.
Edit by badon: BU is a grade, not a type: BU = non-proof.
« Last Edit: 2017 Feb 28, 06:10:32 PM by badon »
 
The following users thanked this post: numistacker, sgcoins

Offline numistacker

Guys for a while now I have been saying that the health of this market is about getting a wider spectrum of people interested and excited about MCC and that should be a #1 priority both in the west and in China.

I have approached Token Publishing who publish the largest circulation numismatic magazine in the UK - Coin News to see if they would be interested in publishing an article on Panda Collecting. They have replied today to say that they have never done such an article and they know there is a level of interest so would I like to write it.

So I am saying to all of you converts - if you could say 5 things to a non MCC non panda  - non modern perhaps - traditional British collector about the merits of MCC and Pandas in general.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

Now is your chance to help to build the audience for MCC/Pandas. What are they key points you would make?

Numistacker,
Thanks for taking this on.  I admire your initiative.  I agree with Jens and fuzzydice.  I experienced exactly what Jens is talking about with my wife collecting everything panda related since being a small child and I was a heavy silver investor / moderate coin collector.  We discovered silver pandas in the late 80’s and started trying to collect all the silver pandas by the late 90’s with Ebay.  I woke up to the China growth potential by 2004 and tried to get everything silver-panda related as well as extras.   

Following are the points I would make (use, copy, plagiarize as you see fit):
 
1.   The Fiat Silver Panda coin proofs made since 1983 have mintages ranging from 800 to 25,000 for proofs.  Compare this to Silver Eagle proof coins made since 1986 that have mintages ranging from 30,125 to 1,446,778  million for the proofs (only 1 being below 99,882). ( http://silvereagleguide.com/mintages/ )  These pandas fall generally in the price range of the proof Silver Eagles, but don’t reflect the panda's average 40X greater rarity.
2.   The Fiat Silver Panda coin non-proof’s made since 1989 have mintages ranging from 100,000 to 8 million for non-proof’s.  Compare this to Silver Eagle non-proof coins made since 1986 that have mintages ranging from 3,603,386 to 47,000,000.  The silver panda non-proof’s prices range from $3/coin more than Eagles to 3X as much for the rarer ones.  This still doesn’t reflect the non-proof panda’s average 30X greater rarity 
3.   The non-Fiat Silver Pandas made during 1984-1996 have mintages ranging from 99 to 4,000 and a proven track record for appreciation.  The rarest of these coins (The 1994 Munich Kilo appreciated from its $700 issue price to $85,000 for 1 sale in 2011), and is still worth $25,000+.  The second rarest (250 mintage 1997 12oz Munich) has gone from $400 to $25,000 in 2011 and still sells for $10,000+.
4.   The non-Fiat Silver, Brass and Gold Pandas made during 2012-2017 take rarity and design variety (not to mention value) to a new unprecedented level with prices still in the general range of the Silver Proof Eagles that are hundreds of times more common.  These recent non-Fiat coins range in mintage numbers of 18 for a 3rd gold Expo 1oz. panda to 2014 for a 15g Baby panda. Their prices fall in the range of the Silver Eagle proofs ($60-$5000), in spite of an average rarity 2,000X greater (200 average vs. 400,000 average mintages) and the more expensive ones being made of gold in the case of the pandas.  These coins have a far greater variety of sizes (15 g to 500 g) and finishes (antique, cameo proof, reverse cameo proof, high relief) than the simple proof and reverse proof Eagles, not to mention dozens of artistic designs vs 1 design for the Eagle.   These recent non-fiat pandas have yet to experience any significant price run-up that the earlier pandas did between 2003-2011.  They are still bargains.
5.   There have been over 200 panda designs in the last 35 years compared to exactly ONE Silver Eagle design.  This, in spite of the fact that the Silver Eagle has had roughly 500 Million Coins made compared to less than 70 Million Panda Coins across these 200+ designs.
6.     The only U.S. coins as rare as the recent 18-200 mintage pandas are the key date Morgan $'s and then it is only in the highest grades that the numbers for the Morgans get down to these recent panda mintages.  These key Morgans in higher grades are worth $10,000 to $250,000 when the number of coins graded gets to this range (18-200).  This is an indication of how immature the MCC market is.
7.     The Chinese economy is growing faster than any large economy and is arguably the largest economy in the world (if currency is adjusted) in spite of only modernizing within the last 30 years.  The U.S. economy has been modernized for 100+ years and the US coin market reached full maturity 35 years ago.  China's only started since then.  The potential growth difference going forward is staggering when the 4X greater population is combined with the 70 year later start in modernizing / embracing capitalism.

Bottom Line:  The Modern Chinese Coin market (and silver pandas in particular, since 1983) combines the lowest mintages of any modern coins with the biggest variety of designs and coin types of all from the biggest population, fastest growing country in the world. This market is far less mature than the U.S., Australian, UK, Canadian, Mexican, German and other coin markets with the number of collectors still tiny (esp. compared to the U.S.).  The Modern Chinese Coin market offers the greatest collectability and investment potential for any coin market ever.




That's great  thank you very much. Some of those ideas I have already incorporated into the first draft but others I will certainly use with your permission.

 I decided to do the article because I was tired of such great potential being shared by only a few diehard enthusiasts.

 Even if we are able to double the number of MCC and panda enthusiasts, that can make a great impact in this market.

Edit by badon: Fixed quote link after splitting to new topic.
« Last Edit: 2017 Feb 28, 06:11:44 PM by badon »
 
The following users thanked this post: RhodiumPanda

Offline badon

This post couldn't be split because it addresses 2 different lines of discussion:

Some very good and educational comments about MCC....
 

Offline badon

 

Offline pandamonium

Chinese love gold/silver and can buy MCC at banks.     China has 5 times the population of the USA so internal demand will outstrip supply.....
 

Offline pandamonium

Take a look at LBC.    Where the forum used to be.    Page 1 & 2 had a lot of information for new collectors and some info that should be good for the article........