Author Topic: Video: 2016 Classical Gardens Humble Administrator's Garden in Antiqued Silver  (Read 1861 times)

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Offline numistacker


Uriah Heap was ever so umble but then so was the Adminstrator.

For those that are interested my lil old video is up.




 
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Offline Y7ASyxC

just received my silver and antique 2016 classical garden's, bombshell coming up.. hold on..
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Offline Y7ASyxC

First of all, the silver i got also has the 'haze' or 'shimmering' like in the picture above.. it's more like some oily residue..

CoA says www.shmintjp.com which i assume is Shanghai mint.

But secondly, and most important, the antique has a die rotation error!
The reverse is upside down? what gives?

Silver CoA# 0795
Antique CoA# 334

I don't have natural light for pictures right now.. but will tomorrow
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Offline numistacker

Mine is also upside down ... maybe that's the right way up?

Offline Y7ASyxC

just looking at numistacker's vid above, he has the same thing. Notice he's holding it upside down (the roof) before flipping it over when it's right side up.
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Offline Y7ASyxC

Mine is also upside down ... maybe that's the right way up?

nope. look at the roof of the garden house on the obverse. Also if you have the silver compare.

Edit by badon: Fixed quote after split.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 30, 01:16:02 PM by badon »
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Offline Y7ASyxC

haha you're holding the obverse upside down the whole vid :)
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Offline Y7ASyxC

yes, you can compare to the silver at the end of your video, it's the right way up on both sides. Notice the roof on the obverse. sorry for posting many times, was watching your video as i went along.
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Offline Y7ASyxC

well don't know if it can be called a die rotation error. We'd need to know if all of the antique are the same way. But what it would mean is that the silver and antique are struck with a different press.
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Offline Y7ASyxC

i've been trying to find the classical garden series on http://www.shmintjp.com/#

no luck so far, even with google translate..
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Offline badon

They were made in the Shanghai Mint. Nobody gets paid to do record keeping, and certainly not publication of the records, so no one does it but us. That's pretty typical everywhere, although the China mints are probably worse about it than the Western mints.
 

Offline Y7ASyxC

badon, do you consider the fact that the die rotation on the antique is off 180 degrees compared to the silver as something interesting, or a non-event?
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Offline badon

If we find some that are different, then we will have varieties to collect, which would be very exciting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're the discoverer of the die orientation difference. One reason the orientation could be different is because of the cracked dies. When the cracked dies are replaced, the new dies might be installed with a different orientation. So, the fact you have found something interesting already is a good clue that maybe there are rare varieties mixed in with all the others. If you buy several of them, you might get lucky. dragonzeng168 (new, ending, sold) just told me he's coming over to read this topic, so maybe he will check his inventory after he learns about your discovery. If he finds varieties, I'm guessing you will be first in line to buy them from him, since your discovery will help to sell the coins. Great job on the research!

Even if nothing else is discovered, it's still an interesting fact, because it's not normal for the orientation to be inconsistent in a series. It might qualify as an error, even if all of them are the same, like the 1985 1 oz silver ANA 94th expo Great Wall backward text error.
 
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Offline badon

First of all, the silver i got also has the 'haze' or 'shimmering' like in the picture above.. it's more like some oily residue..

You know what? I think that's exactly what it is. It's probably an oil that prevents toning and corrosion after the coins are minted. Before plastic coin holders started to become easily available in the 1940's and 1950's, collectors used to coat their coins with oil, wax, lacquer, or even disgusting things like like tar and bacon grease. It worked! It worked better than the modern plastics too, but the big downside was you couldn't safely handle the coins or view them easily like you can with the modern plastics.

What if this is the Shanghai mint's earnest attempt at dealing with quality issues on their coins? Hmm. This method would prevent the formation of white spots too! It's giving me some ideas. I wonder if it's possible to coat the coin with something and still get a good grade from NGC or PCGS? Ideally, getting a 70 grade with a coin preserved in oil or a dry lacquer would be a very good way to near-permanently prevent the white spots from ever forming. Interesting.

Edit by badon: Fixed quote link after splitting to new topic.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 30, 01:20:19 PM by badon »
 

Offline StackOfPandas

Bravo to the Shanghai mint if it's a preservative. I put oil on my silver stack when I'm done polishing tarnish away.
 

Offline Y7ASyxC

First of all, the silver i got also has the 'haze' or 'shimmering' like in the picture above.. it's more like some oily residue..

You know what? I think that's exactly what it is. It's probably an oil that prevents toning and corrosion after the coins are minted. Before plastic coin holders started to become easily available in the 1940's and 1950's, collectors used to coat their coins with oil, wax, lacquer, or even disgusting things like like tar and bacon grease. It worked! It worked better than the modern plastics too, but the big downside was you couldn't safely handle the coins or view them easily like you can with the modern plastics.

What if this is the Shanghai mint's earnest attempt at dealing with quality issues on their coins? Hmm. This method would prevent the formation of white spots too! It's giving me some ideas. I wonder if it's possible to coat the coin with something and still get a good grade from NGC or PCGS? Ideally, getting a 70 grade with a coin preserved in oil or a dry lacquer would be a very good way to near-permanently prevent the white spots from ever forming. Interesting.

This was why i asked earlier, in some thread, if a coin with 'haze' can get a 70, as i was looking at a picture of a PF70 silver 2016 classical garden, with this substance clearly visible in the squares at the top of the obverse.

Edit by badon: Fixed quote link after splitting to new topic.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 30, 01:21:44 PM by badon »
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Offline Y7ASyxC

Bravo to the Shanghai mint if it's a preservative. I put oil on my silver stack when I'm done polishing tarnish away.

i'm still skeptical. If it was a preservative, why would it appear so unevenly distributed?. On the 2016 classical garden silver coins, it's practically visible on all high relief surfaces, and it always appears to concentrate to the nearest edge, or place where the high relief surface breaks. does that make sense?

ie, it's not evenly distributed in the squares, it starts from the edge, and diminishes towards the center.

Edit by badon: Fixed quote link after splitting to new topic.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 30, 01:22:14 PM by badon »
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Offline Y7ASyxC

Bravo to the Shanghai mint if it's a preservative. I put oil on my silver stack when I'm done polishing tarnish away.

i did realize it was a joke by the way lol

Edit by badon: Fixed quote link after splitting to new topic.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 30, 01:22:39 PM by badon »
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Offline Y7ASyxC

I wonder if it's possible to coat the coin with something and still get a good grade from NGC or PCGS? Ideally, getting a 70 grade with a coin preserved in oil or a dry lacquer would be a very good way to near-permanently prevent the white spots from ever forming. Interesting.

Just to be clear, the first time i spotted this was from a picture of a PF 70 grade classical garden, it's what confused me in the first place. I think it might be the ebay picture from dragonzeng168 (new, ending, sold) of the first graded 2016 classical garden to appear on the markets, which badon mentioned in #183 a few pages back.

Edit by badon: Fixed quote link after splitting to new topic.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 30, 01:23:19 PM by badon »
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Offline badon

Bravo to the Shanghai mint if it's a preservative. I put oil on my silver stack when I'm done polishing tarnish away.

i'm still skeptical. If it was a preservative, why would it appear so unevenly distributed?. On the 2016 classical garden silver coins, it's practically visible on all high relief surfaces, and it always appears to concentrate to the nearest edge, or place where the high relief surface breaks. does that make sense?

ie, it's not evenly distributed in the squares, it starts from the edge, and diminishes towards the center.

Surface tension causes it to "stick" to things, so it appears to be thinner when there is less stuff to stick to.

Edit by badon: Fixed quote link after splitting to new topic.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 30, 01:23:54 PM by badon »
 

Offline badon

First of all, the silver i got also has the 'haze' or 'shimmering' like in the picture above.. it's more like some oily residue..

You know what? I think that's exactly what it is. It's probably an oil that prevents toning and corrosion after the coins are minted. Before plastic coin holders started to become easily available in the 1940's and 1950's, collectors used to coat their coins with oil, wax, lacquer, or even disgusting things like like tar and bacon grease. It worked! It worked better than the modern plastics too, but the big downside was you couldn't safely handle the coins or view them easily like you can with the modern plastics.

What if this is the Shanghai mint's earnest attempt at dealing with quality issues on their coins? Hmm. This method would prevent the formation of white spots too! It's giving me some ideas. I wonder if it's possible to coat the coin with something and still get a good grade from NGC or PCGS? Ideally, getting a 70 grade with a coin preserved in oil or a dry lacquer would be a very good way to near-permanently prevent the white spots from ever forming. Interesting.

This was why i asked earlier, in some thread, if a coin with 'haze' can get a 70, as i was looking at a picture of a PF70 silver 2016 classical garden, with this substance clearly visible in the squares at the top of the obverse.

I wonder if it's possible to coat the coin with something and still get a good grade from NGC or PCGS? Ideally, getting a 70 grade with a coin preserved in oil or a dry lacquer would be a very good way to near-permanently prevent the white spots from ever forming. Interesting.

Just to be clear, the first time i spotted this was from a picture of a PF 70 grade classical garden, it's what confused me in the first place. I think it might be the ebay picture from dragonzeng168 (new, ending, sold) of the first graded 2016 classical garden to appear on the markets, which badon mentioned in #183 a few pages back.

This is one place I found it mentioned:

Re: 2016 classical gardens Zhou Zheng Yuan due for release in October

Maybe that's what you're talking about?

Edit by badon: Fixed quote link after splitting to new topic.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 30, 01:26:43 PM by badon »
 

Offline StackOfPandas

Bravo to the Shanghai mint if it's a preservative. I put oil on my silver stack when I'm done polishing tarnish away.

i did realize it was a joke by the way lol

I don't get it.

Edit by badon: Fixed quote link after splitting to new topic.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 30, 01:26:08 PM by badon »
 

Offline Y7ASyxC

There are now 2 unsolved mysteries regarding the 2016 humble administrator classical gardens:

Mystery #1: the mysterious residue on the high relief surfaces of the proof silver, which seem to pass 70 grade without issue
Mystery #2: the antique version has the obverse/reverse in 180 degrees (upside down)
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Offline Y7ASyxC

First of all, the silver i got also has the 'haze' or 'shimmering' like in the picture above.. it's more like some oily residue..

You know what? I think that's exactly what it is. It's probably an oil that prevents toning and corrosion after the coins are minted. Before plastic coin holders started to become easily available in the 1940's and 1950's, collectors used to coat their coins with oil, wax, lacquer, or even disgusting things like like tar and bacon grease. It worked! It worked better than the modern plastics too, but the big downside was you couldn't safely handle the coins or view them easily like you can with the modern plastics.

What if this is the Shanghai mint's earnest attempt at dealing with quality issues on their coins? Hmm. This method would prevent the formation of white spots too! It's giving me some ideas. I wonder if it's possible to coat the coin with something and still get a good grade from NGC or PCGS? Ideally, getting a 70 grade with a coin preserved in oil or a dry lacquer would be a very good way to near-permanently prevent the white spots from ever forming. Interesting.

This was why i asked earlier, in some thread, if a coin with 'haze' can get a 70, as i was looking at a picture of a PF70 silver 2016 classical garden, with this substance clearly visible in the squares at the top of the obverse.

I wonder if it's possible to coat the coin with something and still get a good grade from NGC or PCGS? Ideally, getting a 70 grade with a coin preserved in oil or a dry lacquer would be a very good way to near-permanently prevent the white spots from ever forming. Interesting.

Just to be clear, the first time i spotted this was from a picture of a PF 70 grade classical garden, it's what confused me in the first place. I think it might be the ebay picture from dragonzeng168 (new, ending, sold) of the first graded 2016 classical garden to appear on the markets, which badon mentioned in #183 a few pages back.

This is one place I found it mentioned:

Re: 2016 classical gardens Zhou Zheng Yuan due for release in October

Maybe that's what you're talking about?
No, i remember you mentioning the first PF70 graded one appearing on the markets in #183, and when looking at the zoom of the ebay picture of that link, i noticed it the first time. The comment above was the second time i wrote about it.

Edit by badon: Fixed quote link after splitting to new topic.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 30, 01:28:50 PM by badon »
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Offline Y7ASyxC

Bravo to the Shanghai mint if it's a preservative. I put oil on my silver stack when I'm done polishing tarnish away.

i did realize it was a joke by the way lol

I don't get it.

Well me either, were you joking? :)

btw it's 9 am here, getting close to bedtime. The perks of being unemployed lol

Edit by badon: Fixed quote link after splitting to new topic.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 30, 01:29:30 PM by badon »
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Offline Y7ASyxC

i found it:

Re: MCC LIST #183, move from LBC and continuation here at the CC forum:
2000 1/4 oz gold panda frosted ring NGC 70 in a cheap auction: 2000 China G25Y 1/4 oz Panda Frosted Ring Gold Coin MS 70.

1979 gold UN Year of the Child NGC 69 in a cheap auction: 1979 China G450Y Year Of The Child Gold Coin PF 69.

2004 2/3 oz silver lunar flower monkey NGC 70 in a cheap auction: 2004 Lunar Monkey Silver 2/3oz Flower NGC70 Great! Mintage:6800!Top Grade. From dragonzeng168 (new, ending, sold).

1986 15 g silver lunar tiger NGC 69 in a cheap auction: 1986 China S10Y Lunar Series Tiger MS 69 Ultra Cameo!!!!!.

1981 brass 1 jiao rotated dies error NGC 64 in a cheap auction: NGC Mint Error (Rotated Dies) MS64 - 1981 China Jiao FREE SHIPPING.

2016 8 g silver New Year Good Luck Fu celebration festival NGC 70 non-fiat sold in a cheap auction $23: Shanghai Mint 2016Y GoodLuck silver china coin Non-Fiat Coin-ngc69. Mintage 5000. From luckmoneyro (new, ending, sold). The seller told me he lost money on this coin. It had the wrong title keywords, so it was probably overlooked. Congratulations to the buyer for finding this coin and putting some low-ball bids on it. You never know when you're going to get lucky with a cheap auction. The fiat version that has a mintage of 1.9 million sold in a cheap auction for $73 only a few minutes before the non-fiat version: 2016 China 3Y 8 gram Silver New Year Celebration Good Fortune NGC MS70. This sale emphasizes how great of a deal the non-fiat cheap auction was!

2016 2 oz silver classical gardens Liu Yuan reverse cameo NGC 70 sold for the full Buy-It-Now asking price $270 + shipping: 2016 2 oz silver Classical Garden LIU YUAN Reverse Proof NGC 70 China Coin Non-Fiat Coin. Mintage 500. From dragonzeng168 (new, ending, sold).

2016 2 oz silver classical gardens Humble Administrator's Zhuo Zheng Yuan garden NGC 70 sold for the full Buy-It-Now asking price $270: 2016 The Humble Administrator's Garden Silver 2oz Zhuo Zheng Yuan NGC PF70.729pc. Mintage 729. From dragonzeng168 (new, ending, sold). This is one of the first certified specimens to appear on the market.

Edit by badon: Fixed quote.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 30, 01:30:04 PM by badon »
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Offline Y7ASyxC

2016 The Humble Administrator's Garden Silver 2oz Zhuo Zheng Yuan NGC PF70.729pc

there is the PF70, in which you can clearly see the same phenomena in the zoom over picture of the obverse.

Edit by badon: Linkify.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 27, 10:31:53 PM by badon »
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Offline badon

Some substances can change from invisibly clear to white and cloudy just because of a crystallization of the material. A great example of this at very low temperatures is in chocolate. The expensive chocolate is carefully proofed and tempered in a cooling process identical to the ones used for controlling the crystallization of steel at red-hot temperatures. Fine chocolate that's mirror-reflective can suddenly turn into dusty white stuff if the temperature of it changes a little bit.

If there is some kind of oily, waxy clear substance on the coins acting as a preservative, it could suddenly become visible if the temperature changes. It's not damage to the coin, it's just ugly goop on the coin that was supposed to protect it and remain invisible. If the Shanghai mint is experimenting with surface coatings, that would explain why it's showing up when it's not supposed to, and it explains why it follows the contours of a struck coin, which white spots normally don't do.

The shape of features on the coin can affect the temperature-dependent phase changes or crystallization in the preservative, just like how rain water might crystallize (freeze) on a bridge, but not on a regular road - even if the air is the same temperature in both locations, the surface the water is on might be heat and cool at different rates, which causes them to usually end up at different temperatures.

If this hypothesis is correct, it might be possible to make the preservative become invisible again, just like you can make dusty white stuff on chocolate disappear by proofing and tempering it again.

Have you asked dragonzeng168 about this? Maybe he can find out for sure if there is a surface film on the coins that is supposed to act as a preservative to prevent oxidation, toning, white spots, and other forms of corrosion. I have seen this exact thing happen in industrial anti-corrosion coatings, so I'm betting the Shanghai mint just grabbed one of those coatings, and used it on the coins. That's progress, but next they will have to figure out how to keep it invisible, or how to make it disappear again if it becomes visible.

Oh, the experiments I could do on these poor coins...
 

Offline Y7ASyxC

Some substances can change from invisibly clear to white and cloudy just because of a crystallization of the material. A great example of this at very low temperatures is in chocolate. The expensive chocolate is carefully proofed and tempered in a cooling process identical to the ones used for controlling the crystallization of steel at red-hot temperatures. Fine chocolate that's mirror-reflective can suddenly turn into dusty white stuff if the temperature of it changes a little bit.

If there is some kind of oily, waxy clear substance on the coins acting as a preservative, it could suddenly become visible if the temperature changes. It's not damage to the coin, it's just ugly goop on the coin that was supposed to protect it and remain invisible. If the Shanghai mint is experimenting with surface coatings, that would explain why it's showing up when it's not supposed to, and it explains why it follows the contours of a struck coin, which white spots normally don't do.

The shape of features on the coin can affect the temperature-dependent phase changes or crystallization in the preservative, just like how rain water might crystallize (freeze) on a bridge, but not on a regular road - even if the air is the same temperature in both locations, the surface the water is on might be heat and cool at different rates, which causes them to usually end up at different temperatures.

If this hypothesis is correct, it might be possible to make the preservative become invisible again, just like you can make dusty white stuff on chocolate disappear by proofing and tempering it again.

this reminded me of one of the very few perks of being a finn, which is the ability to enjoy the greatest chocolate ever invented by man, which is Fazer's blue. (picture below)
Maybe someday in your life badon, you also get to experience it.. hmm i'm already thinking about a coin for chocolate exchange haha

Have you asked dragonzeng168 about this? Maybe he can find out for sure if there is a surface film on the coins that is supposed to act as a preservative to prevent oxidation, toning, white spots, and other forms of corrosion. I have seen this exact thing happen in industrial anti-corrosion coatings, so I'm betting the Shanghai mint just grabbed one of those coatings, and used it on the coins. That's progress, but next they will have to figure out how to keep it invisible, or how to make it disappear again if it becomes visible.

Oh, the experiments I could do on these poor coins...

i doubt dragonzeng168 (new, ending, sold) has any more clue than we do. There are now 2 mysteries regarding these coins. I demand this forum to solve them.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 30, 01:30:49 PM by badon »
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Offline Y7ASyxC

i must also add i have yet to see a single picture of the 2016 humble administrator classical garden silver coin without this issue. And as i received mine i saw the same issue with my bare eyes.
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Offline badon

It's ironic that chocolate is in a nice grid pattern. While looking around some more, I found this one:

Could this have been prevented? OUCH!:


That one defies explanation, since I don't think they were using any preservatives back in 2007 when that coin was minted. I'm not sure how it got that white spot pattern that matches the struck surfaces of the coin. The best I can come up with is the white spot residue is actually in the metal, and resides at the crystal grain boundaries. The areas on the planchet that experience the highest deformation expose the most white spot residue at the grain boundaries, so the white spots appear weaker in flat areas, and stronger in high-deformation areas.

That actually makes good sense, but what I don't understand is how the china mint manages to get chlorine or chloride acid residue IN THE METAL. That would be some kind of retarded refining problem. I can research refining methods for silver to see if any them use chlorine somewhere in the process.
 

Offline badon

I found at least 2 silver refining methods that can introduce chlorine within the metal itself, so this seem to be a plausible explanation for when we see white spots that aren't spots - probably better described as exactly what it is, silver chloride, or AgCl. Conservation can still probably reduce the severity of the white AgCl if it's there, but I'm not sure if it can completely remove it, but maybe. More research is needed.
 

Offline Y7ASyxC

my first sample from my new coin studio.

I use heavily optimized and tuned galaxy S2 components. The history, technical details and sophistication of my android optimization must remain unspoken of, because it would simply blow your minds. years and years of hacking and optimizing at the highest level of the android ecosystem has to suffice. However the camera has never been, and will never be a priority, but here goes a test in natural light with the latest nougat release:

In this picture the issue at hand should be visible.
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Offline Y7ASyxC

hmm i'm actually pretty pleased with the result. Given this success, you can await many many wonderful pics from my collection, for which i will start individual threads. For now i'm very happy with this picture, and will now retire for lala-land.
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Offline Y7ASyxC

reverse
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Offline Y7ASyxC

check out how the natural light falls on the left hand side of the garden 'fluff' of the reverse.

it's the reason i'm in numismatics.

i'll optimize my coin studio, this was just the first test shot. Prepare for wonderful pics of wonderful coins
badon, i need a personal subforum where i can start an individual thread for every coin.
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Offline numistacker

Over 2/3rds of the antique silver coins were sent to NGC for grading and most have been given a 70. They are in the census to I guess they should appear soon.

Offline badon

 

Offline Y7ASyxC

The Antique Humble Administrator in Numistacker's "NGC Grading Submissions from TheSilverForum members... deeply jealous but wish them well" video also has the reverse 'upside down'

Starting to look like all Humble Admin's in antique are this way
https://youtu.be/aNEVTcV47I4?t=428
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