Author Topic: Why are people stuck with fiat - Non fiat has more interesting designs  (Read 1856 times)

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Offline trouble

Yes, that panda is quite bald. I personally like this design, despite being bald, haha. So, we have at least 1 precedent for a portrait-style depiction with 2 pandas in the background, but it's from a private mint. I wonder if the 2 artists know each other? The PRC official mints aren't too shy about ripping off design ideas from other artists. If it turns out this privately minted coin influenced the design of official coins, that suddenly makes this privately minted coin valuable to collectors of the official coins.  Considering how rare it is, that small increase in demand could have exaggerated effects on its value, or at the least it could help to support its value. Why do you say it was done at the Shanghai mint? Did I forget about past research on those coins?

I really cannot get the reason that ppl are stuck with fiat. More and more ppl collect non-fiat now. Non fiat has more interesting design and high relief than fiat.
 

Offline barsenault

I'm not stuck on fiat. Lol! Gimee some of that non fiat stuff!! Yum, yum. 
MORE INEXPENSIVE NON-FIAT COINS HERE: http://tinyurl.com/zzgbyfm
 

Offline badon

Yes, that panda is quite bald. I personally like this design, despite being bald, haha. So, we have at least 1 precedent for a portrait-style depiction with 2 pandas in the background, but it's from a private mint. I wonder if the 2 artists know each other? The PRC official mints aren't too shy about ripping off design ideas from other artists. If it turns out this privately minted coin influenced the design of official coins, that suddenly makes this privately minted coin valuable to collectors of the official coins.  Considering how rare it is, that small increase in demand could have exaggerated effects on its value, or at the least it could help to support its value. Why do you say it was done at the Shanghai mint? Did I forget about past research on those coins?

I really cannot get the reason that ppl are stuck with fiat. More and more ppl collect non-fiat now. Non fiat has more interesting design and high relief than fiat.

I'm not sure what you mean "stuck with fiat", in this context, with the Nanjing pandas and the privately minted 30th anniversary pandas. Can you explain? Both of those are non-fiat.
 

Offline barsenault

My guess is he is saying, 'why are many collectors of Chines coins, so hung up on fiat as though they are the only things that matter - and the only things that will appreciate significantly in price?'  The non fiat are just as good, if not better, because they are low mintage, high quality, and you are not beholden to certain images.  The artist has free reign and the mint has free reign to do what they want, which is why we love them more than fiat coins!!  Non fiat rocks.
MORE INEXPENSIVE NON-FIAT COINS HERE: http://tinyurl.com/zzgbyfm
 

Offline barsenault

Let's do a little comparison, shall we.  Don't get me wrong.  I love the Panda bullion and proofs too, but the non fiat are just as good...better, IMHO. Lol. Yes, they are different, so better is not the right word.
MORE INEXPENSIVE NON-FIAT COINS HERE: http://tinyurl.com/zzgbyfm
 

Offline barsenault

vs. this
MORE INEXPENSIVE NON-FIAT COINS HERE: http://tinyurl.com/zzgbyfm
 

Offline badon

Very good examples. The mints are allowed to be lazy on the fiat because they are able to exploit people's gullibility in believing the "lead into gold" propaganda that tries to turn "fiat into coin". The reality is "fiat" can never be turned into "coin", because fiat is literally meaningless by definition. That is why profits are easier for collectors to get when they buy non-fiat coins.

A simple way to understand how that works is to recognize that fiat is the ultimate bubble. When millions of people start paying high prices for a dotcom stock solely because it's a dotcom, that's when you can easily see there is no support, and without support, what goes up must come down. People are paying ridiculous prices for a fiat coin just because it's a fiat coin. Popularity may be the only coin investing fundamental that can beat rarity, but popularity can disappear in heartbeat.

Rarity is a much more reliable way to judge investment potential, but you have to understand both rarity and popularity to become a smart coin investor. If the popularity is stemming from something that isn't likely to change, like the high quality of the artwork, it's fairly obvious that the popularity isn't going to vaporize overnight. Fiat, on the other hand...popularity for that could go at any moment, just as soon as people wise up to the whole "lead into gold" magic the fiat-pushers are trying to convince you they can do. They will never be able to turn lead into gold, and they will never be able to turn fiat into coin either.

It doesn't matter how impressive the tricks are. It's just an entertaining deception, like any other stage magician. Anybody who believes the alchemists can really do magic is wrong, and they'll end up dying after drinking the mercury potion for eternal life, just like the Emperor did!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_Shi_Huang
 

Offline barsenault

Great points!  Unfortunately, at this point perception is reality, and what people perceive to be true at the moment is true, until they realize the 'emperor has no clothes.'  I remember that the Nanjing Pandas #1 were laughed at, scorned and ridiculed. And they sure are becoming harder to find, aren't they?  #2 sold out in a flash.  #3 may be even quicker (if they continue on with a good image). And as popularity grows, and as rarity rules the day, the price climbs with it, or it doesn't get sold. 
MORE INEXPENSIVE NON-FIAT COINS HERE: http://tinyurl.com/zzgbyfm
 

Offline badon

No, the perception is NOT the reality. As you and many of us have already seen, the non-fiat coins have by far the most reliable price gains. fwang2450 even conceded that, even though he is pro-fiat and against the idea of distinguishing fiat from non-fiat:

Why Non-Fiat Coins?

Wow, we're thinking about Nanjing 2017 pandas now? I'm so excited for more! I can't wait to see what they do for the rest of the series. This is the most exciting thing to happen to pandas since...since...since pandas!
 

Offline trouble

No, the perception is NOT the reality. As you and many of us have already seen, the non-fiat coins have by far the most reliable price gains. fwang2450 even conceded that, even though he is pro-fiat and against the idea of distinguishing fiat from non-fiat:

Why Non-Fiat Coins?

Wow, we're thinking about Nanjing 2017 pandas now? I'm so excited for more! I can't wait to see what they do for the rest of the series. This is the most exciting thing to happen to pandas since...since...since pandas!

http://chinesemedals.com/products/2016-endanger-animal-series-panda-5-g-silver-foil-note-by-nanjing-mints-10-pcs-lot-non-color

Another type of non-fiat panda of Nanjing mint using their own patented technology if I am not wrong. this is much more lower than Nanjing panda 2016 BUT it is different type of art. what will be the next and the potential of this item? They listen to Badon mint higher quantity and lower price for panda non fiat.



I suspect somethings on the pipeline from Nanjing very soon.
 

Offline badon

Very good examples. The mints are allowed to be lazy on the fiat because they are able to exploit people's gullibility in believing the "lead into gold" propaganda that tries to turn "fiat into coin". The reality is "fiat" can never be turned into "coin", because fiat is literally meaningless by definition. That is why profits are easier for collectors to get when they buy non-fiat coins.

A simple way to understand how that works is to recognize that fiat is the ultimate bubble. When millions of people start paying high prices for a dotcom stock solely because it's a dotcom, that's when you can easily see there is no support, and without support, what goes up must come down. People are paying ridiculous prices for a fiat coin just because it's a fiat coin. Popularity may be the only coin investing fundamental that can beat rarity, but popularity can disappear in heartbeat.

Rarity is a much more reliable way to judge investment potential, but you have to understand both rarity and popularity to become a smart coin investor. If the popularity is stemming from something that isn't likely to change, like the high quality of the artwork, it's fairly obvious that the popularity isn't going to vaporize overnight. Fiat, on the other hand...popularity for that could go at any moment, just as soon as people wise up to the whole "lead into gold" magic the fiat-pushers are trying to convince you they can do. They will never be able to turn lead into gold, and they will never be able to turn fiat into coin either.

It doesn't matter how impressive the tricks are. It's just an entertaining deception, like any other stage magician. Anybody who believes the alchemists can really do magic is wrong, and they'll end up dying after drinking the mercury potion for eternal life, just like the Emperor did!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_Shi_Huang

Mentioned:

Re: regarding semantics of coin vs. medal
 

Offline badon

 

Offline Y7ASyxC

Would such a simple notion that you actually get 2 interesting sides of a coin instead of (usually) just one side hold any merit? Atleast personally i never find myself spending alot of time looking at the reverse of a fiat coin.
  • never argue with idiots
 

Offline badon

Yes! There is definitely a lot more attention to the details on both sides of most of the non-fiat coins, in contrast with only one side of typical fiat coins. However, the Nanjing mint's newest design proposal for their pandas appears to be imitating the boring Temple of Heaven pagoda on the reverse of all of the main series of fiat pandas since 1982 (1982 was all non-fiat):

New Nanjing 2016 panda and Temple of Heaven pagoda design proposals:







Although it will have the Temple of Heaven pagoda like the main series of fiat pandas, I think the Nanjing mint is going to make it much more impressive. That said, it will be a huge waste of metal if all that high-relief non-fiat glory is exactly the same every year, like the fiat pandas. But, we knew this would happen. The Nanjing mint s already moving in the direction of being more like the other 3 official mints of the People's Republic of China (PRC).

Notice that it's also taking its panda design from the silver foil notes, and all they did was mirror-reverse it. So, BOTH sides are lacking originality, and are instead deliberately imitating something else. This is definitely starting to look like a trend, with the Nanjing mint moving in the same direction of the other 3 mints. The good times won't last forever, and that's why I'm grabbing everything from the Nanjing mint that catches my eye. Waiting will not work.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 12, 11:15:20 PM by badon »
 

Offline badon

I changed the topic title. It was this:

I really cannot get the reason that people are stuck with fiat, Non fiat has more interesting design
 

Offline badon