my double set of ungraded S5Y panda's from 1993 to 1998 - general questions

[Y7ASyxC]

Hello again

So, back in the days i ordered these as complete sets from a german dealer, i don't even remember what i paid for them, i can look it up if someone wants to know.
There are 2 coins of each year, and in general they seem to be in OK condition, some slight toning on a few.

But i remember reading on china-mint forum in a big thread about all the little varieties there are of these, and so i thought i'd just post images, and i do apologize for the terrible quality, if someone is interested in spotting any variety to get excited about. I can post better closeups of any coins per request.

My assumption is these are all the most common types, because i bought them from a retail webshop, and so one can assume these are all common types, and the special ones have been separated out. I'm assuming these are all large dates by the little i know from reading past threads.

Edit: in the future i'll try to make a better spot for taking pictures without the light glare.

[StackOfPandas]

Nice collection you got right there. Nobody sorts these out, not "back in the day". Everybody looks at gold not the silver. I don't know what to find there because I only have the one ounce and I sold them to get rid of the fiat. Rarity is where its at and you probably got it somewhere there. I know 1995 is a good date with some varieties. I used to have one of those too but I don't know what I did with it. Probably sold it. I got a baby panda instead. Gold halfs are moon money so maybe soon silver halfs will be moon money too. I wish I could find my 1995 silver half. I don't know, maybe I'm better off with the baby panda instead. Life was simple when stacking was what its all about. Now I have to find varieties and fiat/non-fiat and antiqued and so on...I'm still a stacker at heart but my stack is smaller now LOL.

[Y7ASyxC]

Hello

Thx for comments. In general i'm not selling unless i really need to because i need funds to upgrade, and i always try to get those fund from somewhere else primarily.. It's not like there's a shortage of central bank thin-air conjured fiat coupons in this world so..

Nevertheless i'm also scaling back old fiat coin buys and now looking at non-fiat's, or what i in my own head call PSS-MCC, or Post Phaseshift Modern Chinese Coins.

[Y7ASyxC]

Err i mean PPS-MCC

[badon]

Hello

Thx for comments. In general i'm not selling unless i really need to because i need funds to upgrade, and i always try to get those fund from somewhere else primarily.. It's not like there's a shortage of central bank thin-air conjured fiat coupons in this world so..

Nevertheless i'm also scaling back old fiat coin buys and now looking at non-fiat's, or what i in my own head call PSS-MCC, or Post Phaseshift Modern Chinese Coins.

Err i mean PPS-MCC

I expect a thorough explanation of this concept, ASAP I assume you're talking about something related to your article Friday ramblings - The psychology of sudden change in your environment. Maybe you need to write another one to expound on that line of thought.

[Y7ASyxC]

I expect a thorough explanation of this concept, ASAP I assume you're talking about something related to your article Friday ramblings - The psychology of sudden change in your environment. Maybe you need to write another one to expound on that line of thought.

Well, yes it's related to that. I'm currently trying to buy some of the 2014 to 2016 non-fiat releases with the money i can come up with, as i described in that post. Let me try to express my thoughts on this.

I remember back in the day when i first discovered badon's threads at LBC, i always read the introduction, it was very interesting information about the market itself, but then the hundreds and hundreds of pages of coins of a bewildering variety and price..

Simply put it just felt overwhelming, it would have taken a huge effort to overcome the initial learning curve to get into that market. I assume many many potential MCC investors would feel the same way.

Then in 2012, was the first time i saw this chinese buddha coin starting to appear on german coindealer's websites where i was regurarly shopping. It was the 2012 China 20 Yuan 2oz Silver Wutai Mountain Wen Shu Buddha Proof Coin.

I remember this very clearly because it was so different from all the other fiat coins. I just edited this section because i remembered it being a non-fiat release, but i just checked and saw it's actually fiat. But nevertheless somehow in my mind that release was really very non-fiat like somehow.. a 2 Oz coin with deep strike.. After that coin i remember actual non-fiat chinese releases starting to pop up with increasing frequency as well. I remember passing on them because i was thinking they are medals, not coins lol.. That seems SO funny now.

I was always more drawn to the modern issues of numismatic coins rather than older scarce issues from previous decades, not only because old graded rare chinese coins cost alot, and requires decades of experience to have a grip on the market, but because new issues are much more affordable if you get them when they are released, and also because personally i am drawn to modern previously never used minting techniques, which are developing at a rapid pace right now.

I like the modern issues because they can now produce simply awesome looking coins compared to the traditional flat strikes. I have no issues with coloring, meteorite coins, laser etched coins, antiquated surfaces, pearl and swarovski inlays, glass inlays etc etc.

anyways back to the topic.. so the buddha was released in 2012.. but i don't remember any BIG fuzz back then, like we have now officially with the nanjing panda's.

I did wonder in another post, what non-fiat coin was it that really got this ball rolling.. i wrote:

"I'm thinking this new era really began in 2014 with the Nanjing Mint 60 gram two lovely panda's release, and now in 2016 it's beginning a real lift-off. Would there be any merit in such a thought, or am i way off base? I'd love to get information on this. When did the non-fiat mcc era begin, and with what release from which mint?"

I just received my first ever modern issue chinese non-fiat coin graded PF69. I will not disclose it yet because i'm waiting to apply for the EPCC once i'm ready. But all i can say is it AWESOME. It has resulted in a dramatic shift in my focus of investment.

WHY do i feel like this about it?

Well first of all, i've suddenly realized that non-fiat coins are totally free from requiring official government approval for the mints to produce them, which results is dramatically more exciting designs, and also free reign on BOTH the obverse and reverse, which is incredible, because you can actually have two awesome sides to each coin, whereas in fiat only one side will be interesting! That's double the fun!

Also these latest 60 gram (again, freedom from strict troy ounces!) releases allow for such a deep strike, giving the coins an awesome depth dimension. When you think about it, it's like going from 2D to 3D! It adds so much more excitement and value to each coin.

And the frosting on my first non-fiat coin.. oh my god, it's like ice-cream, it looks like you could take a very small spoon and just scoop it up, it's such good quality.

so compared to fiat coins, you go from one side of 2D fun to 2 sides of 3D fun, in my mind that's like going from two to the power of one = 2, to three to the power of two = 9!

But the question still remains, when did the non-fiat, or PPS-MCC era really begin? with what release? there was no buzz in 2012 with the wutai, but the scene is on fire now with the 2016 nanjing's, so what happened, and when? with what release?

mike

[Y7ASyxC]

edit, maybe this reply should have been it's own post like you suggested badon, if you want you can remove it and i'll move it to a new 'rambling thread' with it's own headline.

[Y7ASyxC]

ok, scrap this. I will copy the rambling above to it's own topic, and make additions. Because after writing that i think i've just discovered something. Hold on.

[trouble]

I expect a thorough explanation of this concept, ASAP I assume you're talking about something related to your article Friday ramblings - The psychology of sudden change in your environment. Maybe you need to write another one to expound on that line of thought.

Well, yes it's related to that. I'm currently trying to buy some of the 2014 to 2016 non-fiat releases with the money i can come up with, as i described in that post. Let me try to express my thoughts on this.

I remember back in the day when i first discovered badon's threads at LBC, i always read the introduction, it was very interesting information about the market itself, but then the hundreds and hundreds of pages of coins of a bewildering variety and price..

Simply put it just felt overwhelming, it would have taken a huge effort to overcome the initial learning curve to get into that market. I assume many many potential MCC investors would feel the same way.

Then in 2012, was the first time i saw this chinese buddha coin starting to appear on german coindealer's websites where i was regurarly shopping. It was the 2012 China 20 Yuan 2oz Silver Wutai Mountain Wen Shu Buddha Proof Coin.

I remember this very clearly because it was so different from all the other fiat coins. I just edited this section because i remembered it being a non-fiat release, but i just checked and saw it's actually fiat. But nevertheless somehow in my mind that release was really very non-fiat like somehow.. a 2 Oz coin with deep strike.. After that coin i remember actual non-fiat chinese releases starting to pop up with increasing frequency as well. I remember passing on them because i was thinking they are medals, not coins lol.. That seems SO funny now.

I was always more drawn to the modern issues of numismatic coins rather than older scarce issues from previous decades, not only because old graded rare chinese coins cost alot, and requires decades of experience to have a grip on the market, but because new issues are much more affordable if you get them when they are released, and also because personally i am drawn to modern previously never used minting techniques, which are developing at a rapid pace right now.

I like the modern issues because they can now produce simply awesome looking coins compared to the traditional flat strikes. I have no issues with coloring, meteorite coins, laser etched coins, antiquated surfaces, pearl and swarovski inlays, glass inlays etc etc.

anyways back to the topic.. so the buddha was released in 2012.. but i don't remember any BIG fuzz back then, like we have now officially with the nanjing panda's.

I did wonder in another post, what non-fiat coin was it that really got this ball rolling.. i wrote:

"I'm thinking this new era really began in 2014 with the Nanjing Mint 60 gram two lovely panda's release, and now in 2016 it's beginning a real lift-off. Would there be any merit in such a thought, or am i way off base? I'd love to get information on this. When did the non-fiat mcc era begin, and with what release from which mint?"

I just received my first ever modern issue chinese non-fiat coin graded PF69. I will not disclose it yet because i'm waiting to apply for the EPCC once i'm ready. But all i can say is it AWESOME. It has resulted in a dramatic shift in my focus of investment.

WHY do i feel like this about it?

Well first of all, i've suddenly realized that non-fiat coins are totally free from requiring official government approval for the mints to produce them, which results is dramatically more exciting designs, and also free reign on BOTH the obverse and reverse, which is incredible, because you can actually have two awesome sides to each coin, whereas in fiat only one side will be interesting! That's double the fun!

Also these latest 60 gram (again, freedom from strict troy ounces!) releases allow for such a deep strike, giving the coins an awesome depth dimension. When you think about it, it's like going from 2D to 3D! It adds so much more excitement and value to each coin.

And the frosting on my first non-fiat coin.. oh my god, it's like ice-cream, it looks like you could take a very small spoon and just scoop it up, it's such good quality.

so compared to fiat coins, you go from one side of 2D fun to 2 sides of 3D fun, in my mind that's like going from two to the power of one = 2, to three to the power of two = 9!

But the question still remains, when did the non-fiat, or PPS-MCC era really begin? with what release? there was no buzz in 2012 with the wutai, but the scene is on fire now with the 2016 nanjing's, so what happened, and when? with what release?

mike

Republic of China start non fiat in ancient time till now.

[Y7ASyxC]

yes i am well aware of this. But i'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a whole new era in the MCC markets. I'm trying to identify the exact moment the phase shift began, and what caused it. In fact, all of my ramblings are really a response to this post by badon:

My chat with Hybridsole about 4 RELATED(!) pandas for investment purposes

I believe that badon is also sensing that something has changed, but his problem is he's way too close to the markets to see the forest from the trees. I'm trying to offer a non-expert, newbie, outsider, wannabe, potential future investor viewpoint on what has changed, and what it will lead to.

yesterday i posted what i believe were the events that ultimately lead to the nanjing mint non-fiat panda and shenyang mint lunar panda situation we have today here:

The new non-fiat era - A preliminary crime scene investigation.

Later tonight i will post another new thread, where i will combine my thoughts on the PPS-MCC phenomena and my ramblings about price vs. volume into something new. I know most of you think i'm crazy and you're right. But then again, the whole world is crazy

stay tuned.

Edit by badon: Linkify.

[badon]

Fantastic write-up Y7AyxC. I thoroughly enjoyed reading your posts here. I'm going to be posting in more detail in the new topic you started:

Re: The new non-fiat era - A preliminary crime scene investigation.

[trouble]

yes i am well aware of this. But i'm not talking about that. I'm talking about a whole new era in the MCC markets. I'm trying to identify the exact moment the phase shift began, and what caused it. In fact, all of my ramblings are really a response to this post by badon:

My chat with Hybridsole about 4 RELATED(!) pandas for investment purposes

I believe that badon is also sensing that something has changed, but his problem is he's way too close to the markets to see the forest from the trees. I'm trying to offer a non-expert, newbie, outsider, wannabe, potential future investor viewpoint on what has changed, and what it will lead to.

yesterday i posted what i believe were the events that ultimately lead to the nanjing mint non-fiat panda and shenyang mint lunar panda situation we have today here:

The new non-fiat era - A preliminary crime scene investigation.

Later tonight i will post another new thread, where i will combine my thoughts on the PPS-MCC phenomena and my ramblings about price vs. volume into something new. I know most of you think i'm crazy and you're right. But then again, the whole world is crazy

stay tuned.

Edit by badon: Linkify.

There is many stages and revolution of China non fiat. First it treat as decoration item in ancient time and become media of exchange in trading. Before China economy open up after the new China (mr Moa time). Non fiat brass and cooper work as medallion to service award and festive gift.

The flying horse and Great Wall are 2 important non fiat for diplomat in late 70s and early 80s'. Than you can find the hand carved non fiat like gold fish, pagoda, dragon and Phoenix , Beijing palace and so on. The silver and brass are very rare in good condition. Many gold and silver plated are available. Many of those bought by oversea collectors which China collectors buy back at high price after the economic open up and peak of mcc many years ago.

Brass and cooper non fiat are popular item in early 70 and 80s as festive gift due to local cannot afford precious metal. Late 80s many private mints emerge which lead to flood of all types of Non fiat. Time to come the government has came in and regulate the industry and only few big and reputable private mints survive in Late 90s. The industry become more regulated. A lot of information of non fiat are not completed and traceable in early days due to flood of private mints and unsystematic record of official mints.

Than another revolution come , high relief non-fiat coin emerge as comparing to flat non fiat in early day. Each official mints have developed their own specialisation.

Nanjing mints has always technology in advance like minting the trimetalic non fiat which other official and non official yet to reach the technology. Recently they make use of their expert experience and patented technology to mint the silver note or coining note which quoted by badon.

Shanghai mint did the 30 g baby panda debase and panda expo for overseas coin exhibition. They have the older and famous designers and specialise in hand carving. They did train some to continue the hand carve non fiat which issue one or few times per year. However, Shanghai mint always hot white spot issue for silver no fiat and high mintage.

Shenyang mint is second tier of Shanghai mint in local collector eyes but they catch up in designer reputation and better technology in silver non fiat as comparing to Shanghai mints.

Nanjing mints has lesser prominent designers but advance in technology. Able to make Low mintage non fiat for recent decades. Good in silver Non fiat with little white spot issue. They have attracted more and more attention in China especially trimetalic and bimetallic non fiat. As Nanjing panda which sponsor target overseas market instead of local so it yet to attract attention of local till now. This can be good for overseas collectors as when local get hook on it and buy back. It might also another way which local Not aware of it at all since it is not selling locally. Personally I view Nanjing mints sponsors are smart which the trimetalic both for local Ang overseas market and Nanjing panda only for overseas. They might take this as experiment.

It is interesting to check the new development in future. The old prominent designers are retire soon and new stars will show up. Hope more spark to come

Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin.