Author Topic: The Nanjing Mint Auspicious Dragon and Phoenix is developing under the radar...  (Read 8837 times)

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Offline numistacker

#1 It started out with the Copper/Silver with Brass Koi Reverse (299 minted).
#2 Then we saw the strangely interesting red/brass/silver with Brass Koi Reverse Antiqued (199 minted)

Just recently two other versions were minted and these have a higher Silver Content.

#3 Silver (30g)/Copper obverse with brass reverse (70 minted)
#4 Brass/Copper obverse with Silver (30g) reverse (129 minted)
These last two are effectively a pair and have the same COA printed with a total mintage of 199 (my figures for the individual mintages are unverified at this point since the final tranche is still being minted a little later than intended due to the technical difficulties of dealing with tri-metal minting).

The #1 coin is already difficult to find and is up in price. I predict the next sales will be higher due to collectors wanting to build a set and due to the much higher introductory price of the Silver variants (#3 and #4). Though part of the price difference is down to the lower mintage numbers and the use of larger amounts of Silver, I think that we could see the #1 double in price shortly.

The #2 coin is also interesting. Lucky was selling it for $78 and it will be needed to complete the set. With a mintage of 199 the price of $78 including postage is very low. While it may not be as attractive as the #1,#3 or #4 coin I think that the demand will be there as collectors realise that this was not a one off and there are a number of variants to collect.

I did a small pre-order on the Silver Forum and these are not generally to MCC or Non-fiat coin Collectors. My Pre-order allocation was sold out within 3 days. I think that there is a good market for this type of beautiful non-fiat coin in a wider stacker market and with mintages that are this low even 0.001% of stacker interest can sell out an edition.

Here is my pre-order box opening video showing the new variants.



Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2016 May 21, 06:38:23 AM by badon »
 
The following users thanked this post: RhodiumPanda

Offline numistacker

Some more pics...


Offline numistacker

Top Left to Bottom Right

#1 Copper/Silver with Brass Koi Reverse (299 minted).
#2 Then we saw the strangely interesting red/brass/silver with Brass Koi Reverse Antiqued (199 minted)
#3 Silver (30g)/Copper obverse with brass reverse (70 minted)
#4 Brass/Copper obverse with Silver (30g) reverse (129 minted)



Offline numistacker

Todays's video showing the 4 Dragon and Phoenix medals to date...



Offline badon

I have been talking with luckmoneyro about these coins, and he seems to be confused by the claim that the mintage is 70 for the 30 g silver dragon-side and 129 for the 30 g silver fish side. He said the COA says 199 for both, and he thinks that means the mintage is 199 for both. The idea to combine mintages is really stupid and I really hope they're not really doing that with these coins. Also, luckmoneyro doesn't seem to know anthing about the"Overseas edition" - what does that mean?
 

Offline numistacker

I have been talking with luckmoneyro about these coins, and he seems to be confused by the claim that the mintage is 70 for the 30 g silver dragon-side and 129 for the 30 g silver fish side. He said the COA says 199 for both, and he thinks that means the mintage is 199 for both. The idea to combine mintages is really stupid and I really hope they're not really doing that with these coins. Also, luckmoneyro doesn't seem to know anthing about the"Overseas edition" - what does that mean?

The first one was Chinese market and COA was Chinese only. This latest one is in English and Chinese and so designed to appeal to China and the West. The COA has a total combined mintage of 199 and I agree that to have one COA is stupid and confusing. The relative mintage numbers were given to me by Andy Lee when I did the Pre order for these coins on the silver forum. I believe that this imbalance is because the Silver Copper may be marginally more difficult to mint. 

Offline badon

That is very important to know. My experience in the past has been, if the COA says a mintage, that's how many eventually get minted. Whenever a lower mintage is reported on a current-year coin, EVERY TIME, the full mintage was eventually minted by the end of the year. A lot gets lost in translation, and it seems to be a part of Chinese culture to play dumb about this fact, and claim innocent accident. They do it to each other, and to everyone else, and I suspect often they truly don't even realize they're doing it.

We can blame Chinese characters for being ambiguous or having nuances of meaning that are impossible to memorize because the character set is already so huge and difficult to know enough of them for even basic literacy...that communication problem is probably where this cultural quirk originated. Yes, it's possible the full mintage won't be made, but luckmoneyro's advice to me was to go by what the COA says, and ignore any other numbers quoted. It may not be a coincidence that the "Overseas version" loses some things in translation.

I do not own any of these coins yet because I wanted to wait to see the big picture before I put money into them. I'm 100% certain I'm going to regret waiting, haha, but I can't afford everything I want anyway. The dragon and phoenix is such a popular theme worldwide, I'm kind of getting used to getting left in the dust with them! So, I may be a little cranky and extra negative about these - sour grapes maybe. In any case, it's not too late to get them, and I like researching everything just for fun, so we'll see where this rabbit hole goes...

It's a big difference between 70 and 199 mintage. This coin series has been popular from the beginning, and I'm convinced the mint will produce and sell every coin they are authorized to coin. If the COA says 199, nobody should be shocked if that turns out to be the true mintage. Everyone should know this to avoid disappointments, which are a nasty lasting scar on the whole market that can't be easily covered-up. I'm not sure what your situation is, but if you don't get convincing answers from your sources that it is indeed possible the full 199 mintage could be or has been coined, then the best advice I can give you is to tell everyone this who has pre-ordered, and give them an opportunity to back out if they choose to do so. Last time this happened, nobody was mad (on an $8000 coin!), so as long as we make a diligent effort to provide the best info we can, they will be understanding if something doesn't quite go perfectly.

In the end, sometimes its funky things like this that eventually become part of the historical story of the coins, and that keeps collectors interested and engaged. A great example are the 1984 silver pagodas. Controversy swirled around those, and it did nothing but make them more valuable. After the controversy died down, the prices weakened! Eventually dealers are going to catch on to this phenomenon, and they'll start hiring devil's advocates to troll the forums, haha. Kitco is notorious for doing things like this, but it works for them. As Liberace once said, he was crying all the way to the bank the last time someone said something unkind about him :)
 

Offline numistacker

That is very important to know. My experience in the past has been, if the COA says a mintage, that's how many eventually get minted. Whenever a lower mintage is reported on a current-year coin, EVERY TIME, the full mintage was eventually minted by the end of the year. A lot gets lost in translation, and it seems to be a part of Chinese culture to play dumb about this fact, and claim innocent accident. They do it to each other, and to everyone else, and I suspect often they truly don't even realize they're doing it.

We can blame Chinese characters for being ambiguous or having nuances of meaning that are impossible to memorize because the character set is already so huge and difficult to know enough of them for even basic literacy...that communication problem is probably where this cultural quirk originated. Yes, it's possible the full mintage won't be made, but luckmoneyro's advice to me was to go by what the COA says, and ignore any other numbers quoted. It may not be a coincidence that the "Overseas version" loses some things in translation.

I do not own any of these coins yet because I wanted to wait to see the big picture before I put money into them. I'm 100% certain I'm going to regret waiting, haha, but I can't afford everything I want anyway. The dragon and phoenix is such a popular theme worldwide, I'm kind of getting used to getting left in the dust with them! So, I may be a little cranky and extra negative about these - sour grapes maybe. In any case, it's not too late to get them, and I like researching everything just for fun, so we'll see where this rabbit hole goes...

It's a big difference between 70 and 199 mintage. This coin series has been popular from the beginning, and I'm convinced the mint will produce and sell every coin they are authorized to coin. If the COA says 199, nobody should be shocked if that turns out to be the true mintage. Everyone should know this to avoid disappointments, which are a nasty lasting scar on the whole market that can't be easily covered-up. I'm not sure what your situation is, but if you don't get convincing answers from your sources that it is indeed possible the full 199 mintage could be or has been coined, then the best advice I can give you is to tell everyone this who has pre-ordered, and give them an opportunity to back out if they choose to do so. Last time this happened, nobody was mad (on an $8000 coin!), so as long as we make a diligent effort to provide the best info we can, they will be understanding if something doesn't quite go perfectly.

In the end, sometimes its funky things like this that eventually become part of the historical story of the coins, and that keeps collectors interested and engaged. A great example are the 1984 silver pagodas. Controversy swirled around those, and it did nothing but make them more valuable. After the controversy died down, the prices weakened! Eventually dealers are going to catch on to this phenomenon, and they'll start hiring devil's advocates to troll the forums, haha. Kitco is notorious for doing things like this, but it works for them. As Liberace once said, he was crying all the way to the bank the last time someone said something unkind about him :)

All I can say is I was sent medals boxes and COA seperately and there is 199 COA for the total combined.

I reached 165 on my COA and I have 3 to come so my expectation is 199 total combined mintage.

Offline badon

They make such a big deal about their advanced minting technology, but they can't print an effing piece of paper with the right numbers on it...
 

Offline badon

IS there 1 COA for both coins, or are there 2 COA's for both coins?
 

Offline numistacker

IS there 1 COA for both coins, or are there 2 COA's for both coins?



1 COA with consecutive numbering from 1 to 199 covering the combined mintage of both coins

Offline badon

OK, thanks for the info. I can think of 2 precedents for this, and both are at the Shanghai mint with the much-vaunted CCT5667: Classical gardens series. You will see that the CCT7091 and CCT7092 2016 2 oz silver Lingering Garden Liu Yuan garden cameo and reverse cameo types, and the CCT6077 and CCT6078 2015 brass Summer Chengde Mountain Resort and matte antiqued were "split" from a single planned mintage, to 2 actual mintages, both together totaling to the authorized mintage. Once is an aberration, more than that is a routine. I'm out of time to check to see if those all came with their own separate COA's, but I think they did. The sponsors probably would have insisted, and since it's a lot less work to print COA's than to mint coins, they probably got the job done.

luckmoneyro said he does not know the sponsors of the Nanjing dragon and phoenix, and he specifically said he does not understand what they are doing. My impression is they are not experienced at this, and they do not know that these kinds of problems might kill a series. NGC has long been requiring COA's for some coins before they will grade them, and this could be an issue for them. With NO COA's, let alone accurate COA's there is bound to be a lot of confusion. Really, it's not too much to ask them to print up proper COA's and send them over. I'm sure if you said you're paying $10 for a pair of proper COA's, that might get their attention. That's less than the money you would lose if NGC refuses to grade them, but keeps your grading fee.

 

Offline numistacker

OK, thanks for the info. I can think of 2 precedents for this, and both are at the Shanghai mint with the much-vaunted CCT5667: Classical gardens series. You will see that the CCT7091 and CCT7092 2016 2 oz silver Lingering Garden Liu Yuan garden cameo and reverse cameo types, and the CCT6077 and CCT6078 2015 brass Summer Chengde Mountain Resort and matte antiqued were "split" from a single planned mintage, to 2 actual mintages, both together totaling to the authorized mintage. Once is an aberration, more than that is a routine. I'm out of time to check to see if those all came with their own separate COA's, but I think they did. The sponsors probably would have insisted, and since it's a lot less work to print COA's than to mint coins, they probably got the job done.

luckmoneyro said he does not know the sponsors of the Nanjing dragon and phoenix, and he specifically said he does not understand what they are doing. My impression is they are not experienced at this, and they do not know that these kinds of problems might kill a series. NGC has long been requiring COA's for some coins before they will grade them, and this could be an issue for them. With NO COA's, let alone accurate COA's there is bound to be a lot of confusion. Really, it's not too much to ask them to print up proper COA's and send them over. I'm sure if you said you're paying $10 for a pair of proper COA's, that might get their attention. That's less than the money you would lose if NGC refuses to grade them, but keeps your grading fee.



 You make an interesting point about grading because I have a number of medals that I will be sending to NGC for the grading the next 2 to 3 weeks.  Previously I have sent medals with no COA and I have had no problems.

This time I have taken photocopies of the COA and packed them with each medal to be a little more certain that they will be correctly graded.

Offline badon

I just had a very interesting thought. The 1984 silver pagodas had "semi-official" COA's printed up by the dealers themselves to answer the question of what the mintage was (260). Those original COA's are not from the mint, but they're absolutely contemporary, primary source, valuable historical artifacts. They are collectible, and I have paid good money to get them in all their variants. If you can't get real COA's, some kind of documentation produced by the dealers themselves with the relevant facts on them may be good enough. Deep down inside I'm secretly hoping these coins turn out to be a lot more interesting due to this issue, and I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to see how it turns out. Extra COA varieties? A repeat of 1984? A spiritual connection with the Classical Gardens? This plot could take some interesting twists from here, if you're able to rock the boat a little, all in good fun.
 

Offline badon

OK, thanks for the info. I can think of 2 precedents for this, and both are at the Shanghai mint with the much-vaunted CCT5667: Classical gardens series. You will see that the CCT7091 and CCT7092 2016 2 oz silver Lingering Garden Liu Yuan garden cameo and reverse cameo types, and the CCT6077 and CCT6078 2015 brass Summer Chengde Mountain Resort and matte antiqued were "split" from a single planned mintage, to 2 actual mintages, both together totaling to the authorized mintage. Once is an aberration, more than that is a routine. I'm out of time to check to see if those all came with their own separate COA's, but I think they did. The sponsors probably would have insisted, and since it's a lot less work to print COA's than to mint coins, they probably got the job done.

luckmoneyro said he does not know the sponsors of the Nanjing dragon and phoenix, and he specifically said he does not understand what they are doing. My impression is they are not experienced at this, and they do not know that these kinds of problems might kill a series. NGC has long been requiring COA's for some coins before they will grade them, and this could be an issue for them. With NO COA's, let alone accurate COA's there is bound to be a lot of confusion. Really, it's not too much to ask them to print up proper COA's and send them over. I'm sure if you said you're paying $10 for a pair of proper COA's, that might get their attention. That's less than the money you would lose if NGC refuses to grade them, but keeps your grading fee.



 You make an interesting point about grading because I have a number of medals that I will be sending to NGC for the grading the next 2 to 3 weeks.  Previously I have sent medals with no COA and I have had no problems.

This time I have taken photocopies of the COA and packed them with each medal to be a little more certain that they will be correctly graded.

We have to keep in mind it could be decades or centuries before some of these coins get graded. By that time, I'm sure everybody else will be able to make very nice fakes of them, and as usual, the only thing they won't bother to copy are the COA's. Having all the pedigree papers in order will always enhance the value of historical items like coins.
 

Offline perfulator

IS there 1 COA for both coins, or are there 2 COA's for both coins?


1 COA with consecutive numbering from 1 to 199 covering the combined mintage of both coins

Strange. I got separate COA's for my set from chinesemedals.  2 non-fiat coins, 2 coa's. If the plan was to have a combined COA they should be numbered 1 to 99 and sold in one box.  Maybe your seller forgot to send you one?

Anyway totally happy to be onboard this series and look forward to the continuation!

Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2016 Jun 05, 02:02:20 AM by badon »
 

Offline numistacker

Yes there are 199 COAs and 199 non-fiat coins total. The issue is split between both types.

Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2016 Jun 05, 02:03:09 AM by badon »
 

Offline perfulator

Then we agree, I understood you like you got one coa for the two non-fiat coin set, sorry

Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2016 Jun 05, 02:03:48 AM by badon »
 

Offline badon

I think I might have misunderstood that too. I'm glad to hear each coin has its own COA.
 

Offline badon

I found another precedent for "type combining": Re: New Variety Types: Frosted & Mirrored 2015 1 oz silver panda 3rd panda coin expo. I'm not sure why this is happening, but Jeru called those 3rd panda expos "varieties". That made me think it's possible the immature Chinese coin market is still trying to understand the concept of varieties, and for now they have the wrong idea that varieties are good thing based on their very limited experience with famous varieties like the 1998 1/2 oz gold large date pandas. So, they're combining mintages and pretending they're varieties when in fact they are distinct types with their own distinct mintages.
 

Offline badon

 

Offline trouble

Are you guy referring the Nanjing Mint Trimetalic?

If yes, the thread title is misleading which state shanghai mint.

Individual official mint have their policy and way of doing things or even each series on same mints.

Panda expo 3 has proof and reverse proof which issued 2 separate coa with same no. Like proof in coa no 23 BUT states proof version and reverse proof also another coa no 23 BUT states reverse proof. However, this Nanjing mints 30 g overseas version of dragon and phoenix using same coa for 2 versions as my understanding from Numistacker and perfulator. I bought few set of it and everyone with coa. Thus, it is no confusion for me at all.

I have pointed in LBC few times seems like luckypro has loss few new release items of those official mint. However, I do not know the reason even I ask few people in the market. He loss and not selling classical garden, panda expo, world heritage 4 and silver dragon and phoenix versions.

It seems an internal conflict among those distribution channels and fight among few big dealers of non-fiat.

I try to buy those silver dragon and phoenix in china BUT fail which make me no choice to buy with higher price. It not even many sold transactions in ebay. I contact one coin shop in Singapore who is chinesemedals reseller (I deduce) to get extra pair BUT they told me got no extra pair and all sold. They told me it is very fast gone and around 20 pieces were allocated to them. Numistacker did sold some for Andy of chinesemedals (guess around 10 -15 pcs). I came across someone is selling in Malaysia too (guess 20-30). Barsenault webpage and partner sold some (guess 30 - 40). So total add up are 20+ 10 +20 +30 = 80 lower estimation sold or 20+15+30 + 40 = 105.  This means half of total mintage sold. I suspect more have been sold and some of it keep for grading like the classical garden Ge Yuan. The graded coins might not more than 20- 30% of the total mintage 199 available for sell as my deduction because barsenault and partner likely keep some for their collection.     

Anyone has more information on it?




 
 

Offline numistacker

Are you guy referring the Nanjing Mint Trimetalic?

If yes, the thread title is misleading which state shanghai mint.

Individual official mint have their policy and way of doing things or even each series on same mints.

Panda expo 3 has proof and reverse proof which issued 2 separate coa with same no. Like proof in coa no 23 BUT states proof version and reverse proof also another coa no 23 BUT states reverse proof. However, this Nanjing mints 30 g overseas version of dragon and phoenix using same coa for 2 versions as my understanding from Numistacker and perfulator. I bought few set of it and everyone with coa. Thus, it is no confusion for me at all.

I have pointed in LBC few times seems like luckypro has loss few new release items of those official mint. However, I do not know the reason even I ask few people in the market. He loss and not selling classical garden, panda expo, world heritage 4 and silver dragon and phoenix versions.

It seems an internal conflict among those distribution channels and fight among few big dealers of non-fiat.

I try to buy those silver dragon and phoenix in china BUT fail which make me no choice to buy with higher price. It not even many sold transactions in ebay. I contact one coin shop in Singapore who is chinesemedals reseller (I deduce) to get extra pair BUT they told me got no extra pair and all sold. They told me it is very fast gone and around 20 pieces were allocated to them. Numistacker did sold some for Andy of chinesemedals (guess around 10 -15 pcs). I came across someone is selling in Malaysia too (guess 20-30). Barsenault webpage and partner sold some (guess 30 - 40). So total add up are 20+ 10 +20 +30 = 80 lower estimation sold or 20+15+30 + 40 = 105.  This means half of total mintage sold. I suspect more have been sold and some of it keep for grading like the classical garden Ge Yuan. The graded coins might not more than 20- 30% of the total mintage 199 available for sell as my deduction because barsenault and partner likely keep some for their collection.     

Anyone has more information on it?

 

I tried to change the title but to Nanjing -- oops.. My fault but the system would not let me ...

Offline badon

I can't believe I didn't notice the mint name error. I fixed it for you. The title was renamed from this:

The Shanghai Mint Auspicious Dragon and Phoenix is developing under the radar...

To this:

The Nanjing Mint Auspicious Dragon and Phoenix is developing under the radar...
 

Offline numistacker


I try to buy those silver dragon and phoenix in china BUT fail which make me no choice to buy with higher price. It not even many sold transactions in ebay. I contact one coin shop in Singapore who is chinesemedals reseller (I deduce) to get extra pair BUT they told me got no extra pair and all sold. They told me it is very fast gone and around 20 pieces were allocated to them. Numistacker did sold some for Andy of chinesemedals (guess around 10 -15 pcs). I came across someone is selling in Malaysia too (guess 20-30). Barsenault webpage and partner sold some (guess 30 - 40). So total add up are 20+ 10 +20 +30 = 80 lower estimation sold or 20+15+30 + 40 = 105.  This means half of total mintage sold. I suspect more have been sold and some of it keep for grading like the classical garden Ge Yuan. The graded coins might not more than 20- 30% of the total mintage 199 available for sell as my deduction because barsenault and partner likely keep some for their collection.     
 

I pre-sold 7 non-fiat coins in total and kept 4 for myself. Minting was in 2 batches and I have 1 x #3 (silver/copper) and 1 x #4 (brass/copper) Post should deliver 3 more this week - 1 missing from a customer and 2 for me with 3 coa's of which 2 are signed by the designer.

I have 3 (#1,#2,#4) at NGC getting graded and will send all the new ones to NGC over the next month or so. I have 2 more #1 non-fiat coins that i got via Lucky a couple of months ago which he sent to USA so I have not seen yet but they will also be graded.

My understanding is #1 is sold out and impossible to find. There may be a couple of #2 (red one) left and I am not 100% sure but I think probably available #3 and #4 ungraded are thin on the ground and some are being held back for graded sale.

Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2016 Jun 07, 07:40:17 AM by badon »
 

Offline trouble


I try to buy those silver dragon and phoenix in china BUT fail which make me no choice to buy with higher price. It not even many sold transactions in ebay. I contact one coin shop in Singapore who is chinesemedals reseller (I deduce) to get extra pair BUT they told me got no extra pair and all sold. They told me it is very fast gone and around 20 pieces were allocated to them. Numistacker did sold some for Andy of chinesemedals (guess around 10 -15 pcs). I came across someone is selling in Malaysia too (guess 20-30). Barsenault webpage and partner sold some (guess 30 - 40). So total add up are 20+ 10 +20 +30 = 80 lower estimation sold or 20+15+30 + 40 = 105.  This means half of total mintage sold. I suspect more have been sold and some of it keep for grading like the classical garden Ge Yuan. The graded coins might not more than 20- 30% of the total mintage 199 available for sell as my deduction because barsenault and partner likely keep some for their collection.     
 

I pre-sold 7 non-fiat coins in total and kept 4 for myself. Minting was in 2 batches and I have 1 x #3 (silver/copper) and 1 x #4 (brass/copper) Post should deliver 3 more this week - 1 missing from a customer and 2 for me with 3 coa's of which 2 are signed by the designer.

I have 3 (#1,#2,#4) at NGC getting graded and will send all the new ones to NGC over the next month or so. I have 2 more #1 non-fiat coins that i got via Lucky a couple of months ago which he sent to USA so I have not seen yet but they will also be graded.

My understanding is #1 is sold out and impossible to find. There may be a couple of #2 (red one) left and I am not 100% sure but I think probably available #3 and #4 ungraded are thin on the ground and some are being held back for graded sale.


Highly possible both of our deduction is correct. Not many #3 and #4 left on the ground and they keep some for graded sale.

#1 I seldom came across no 1 in China and luckypro up his price of the Ngc pf69 for no #1 in eBay. This consistent with his previous style which up price as when stock Low. However I am not sure #2 because it is also hard to come across in China but luckypro do not up his price. As I heard # 2 was not fully minted. This means Nanjing mint still can mint fully within this year if the policy not changing and economical to start the minting balance. I suspect luckypro might want to sell it fast in order to mints the balance and grab this high demand opportunity. He can control the #2 since he has no access to no #3 and #4. Otherwise he always up price when stock level is Low. So no logic for him to sell #2 Low. What if the Person commission the #3 and 4 request Nanjing mint to do the full mintage of #2 ? Luckypro will loss it again so the price might up or ???? A lot puzzle here. I bought few pieces of no 1,2,3 and 4 at entry level price. Seems like good bet.

Hi numistacker 

Can you get more information for us ?


Edit by badon: Fixed quote.
« Last Edit: 2016 Jun 07, 07:41:29 AM by badon »
 

Offline numistacker

I heard - and i dont know how much of this is right or wrong.. but...i heard that when the Nanjing mint did #1 the first batch didnt turn out right but they didnt want to throw them away so they used some creativity to create #2. The red application was applied to the front and the back was antiqued.

Probably they never really intended to mint more than the first batch and I heard it didn't sell well at all.

I have the first one with NGC at the moment and NGC have described it as "Colourized" rather than Antique and I guess they had no clear way to know what it was. It is interesting that #2 seems to be growing on people and I had an order from a friend on the SilverForum to locate a #2 for him to complete his set and I managed to get one from Lucky.


Offline trouble

I heard - and i dont know how much of this is right or wrong.. but...i heard that when the Nanjing mint did #1 the first batch didnt turn out right but they didnt want to throw them away so they used some creativity to create #2. The red application was applied to the front and the back was antiqued.

Probably they never really intended to mint more than the first batch and I heard it didn't sell well at all.

I have the first one with NGC at the moment and NGC have described it as "Colourized" rather than Antique and I guess they had no clear way to know what it was. It is interesting that #2 seems to be growing on people and I had an order from a friend on the SilverForum to locate a #2 for him to complete his set and I managed to get one from Lucky.



The red color one is imitation of the "China royal family color coating technology". I heard the same story BUT it seems nothings much left now. Will luckpro mint the #2? Will the mint does it ? or will the silver dragon and phoenix sponsor does it before him? or will the mint does it as gift since it is so popular. all type of question now.

However, it is wiser to buy it at low price now rather than view as my personal view since it is at 78 per piece only.   
 

Offline numistacker

I am not sure if this has surfaced here yet but I thought that it would be good to let people know.
There is in fact a new #5 in the Dragon and Phoenix series that has surfaced.

The #5 Auspicious dragon and phoenix is based on the #3 non-fiat coin that is Silver/Copper obverse and brass (Koi) reverse but it has been antiqued making it the first Trimet Matte Antiqued Dragon and Phoenix.

As you can see from the COA picture this is a limited mintage of 69 coins and my understanding is that about 30 of these have been kept by the mint as VIP gifts and about 39 are available to purchase though I suspect that all but 2 or 3 have been pre-ordered by collectors of this lovely mini-series.

There is one non-fiat coin available on eBAY via seller Chinesemedals.com and this is the description:

262512342998

 2015 Nanjing Mints -China traditional culture series - Dragon and Phoenix trimetalic non-fiat coin RARE antique finishing 69 Mintage
The first non-fiat coin is auspicious dragon phoenix. 45 mm diameter, breakthrough technology combining three materials into 1 non-fiat coin, High relief sand blasted with mirror proof surface, coin edge at rim and first for China.

Observes the "auspicious dragon and phoenix ". A Chinese scholar has cited, a wise emperor with mercy will lead to peace and one of the 9 dragon will show up to represent the auspicious. The reserve is "koi jump over the dragon gate". The ancient "HAN empire" ethic group of China legend cited the koi will turn into Dragon after jumping over the dragon gate. This represent promotion in ranking if you are employee, successfulness and higher achievement if you are businessman, achieve an excellent results if you are student and so on. Both sides of the non-fiat coin represent Chinese tradition.

Chinese Traditional Culture series Dragon and Phoenix Tri-metalic non-fiat coin excellent technology highlights:


1. A breakthrough advance technology of Nanjing Mint to cast and strike three different metals brass, copper and silver together tightly as showed in video instead of using industry glue which is common in practise.

2. Generally the traditional mirror sandblasting process for 45 mm diameter high relief non-fiat coin is around height of 0.5mm. However, Nanjing mint has made another high relief technology breakthrough  - 3mm. 

Generally, the mirror sandblasting process must strike once rather than numerous times. To make this happen for the Dragon and Phoenix Tri-metalic non-fiat coin using the latest technology of three times casting and striking to merge the three metals by numerous dies' This is different technology with the classical garden since it is tri-metalic instead of one metal only.

http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-73235-nanjing-mints-technology-braekthrough-high-relief-medal.html

By : Nanjing Mint
Mintage : 69
Material : Copper, brass and 30 gram silver (antique matte finishing)
Coa and box.



I have also included a photo of the #2 Dragon and Phoenix non-fiat coin This is the first one to be graded by NGC and they have described it correctly as Enamelled and this one was given PF69 - ANTIQUED.

Edit by badon: Linkify, medal = non-fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2016 Jul 06, 03:25:43 AM by badon »
 

Offline numistacker

I heard - and i dont know how much of this is right or wrong.. but...i heard that when the Nanjing mint did #1 the first batch didnt turn out right but they didnt want to throw them away so they used some creativity to create #2. The red application was applied to the front and the back was antiqued.

Probably they never really intended to mint more than the first batch and I heard it didn't sell well at all.

I have the first one with NGC at the moment and NGC have described it as "Colourized" rather than Antique and I guess they had no clear way to know what it was. It is interesting that #2 seems to be growing on people and I had an order from a friend on the SilverForum to locate a #2 for him to complete his set and I managed to get one from Lucky.



The red color one is imitation of the "China royal family color coating technology". I heard the same story BUT it seems nothings much left now. Will luckpro mint the #2? Will the mint does it ? or will the silver dragon and phoenix sponsor does it before him? or will the mint does it as gift since it is so popular. all type of question now.

However, it is wiser to buy it at low price now rather than view as my personal view since it is at 78 per piece only.   

I was very happy to get a PF69 Antiqued for this #2 non-fiat coin. That was a very good result as it is not clear if NGC favour these antiqued non-fiat coins and the enamel finish seems very unique so no precedent.


Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2016 Jul 06, 03:26:46 AM by badon »
 

Offline numistacker

The first few Dragon and Phoenix Antique #5 have hit the market. There may not be many more with a mintage of 69 and 30 reportedly being given away as VIP gifts by the mint.

232005422510

Seller Lavendrsh7 had 2 and sold one in omp at $468
lavendersh7

Link to video by Panda King


Edit by badon: Linkify, fixed video link (put it on a new line).




« Last Edit: 2016 Jul 13, 12:44:48 PM by badon »
 

Offline badon

Any news about these coming to the market in certified grades?
 

Offline numistacker

Any news about these coming to the market in certified grades?

NGC is really slow at the moment. I have had stuff with NCS since 3rd June and it's not done with yet. It will be a month to 6 weeks I think before we see them certified and I will be certifying 2. Might conserve and grade or just grade not sure yet.

Offline badon

Maybe by the time you get them back, I'll be able to afford one of them :)
 

Offline numistacker

The first two Antique Silver Dragon and Phoenix are back from NGC grading with PF69 which is very good for an Antique finish coin.

You may have noticed that these are basically impossible to find.

Mintage is 69 non-fiat coins for this one.
My understanding is 30 were kept by the mint leaving 39 in circulation.

 
The following users thanked this post: badon, StackOfPandas

Offline badon

You have any for sale? I still don't have one for my collection, and I'm doing my best to make this post sound as pathetically whiney and shrill as possible, haha :)
 

Offline StackOfPandas

Great, that's just great with two of them. One for badon and one for me. Squee!
 

Offline numistacker

Great, that's just great with two of them. One for badon and one for me. Squee!

You have any for sale? I still don't have one for my collection, and I'm doing my best to make this post sound as pathetically whiney and shrill as possible, haha :)

I can feel a bidding war coming on )) seriously I have 1 for sale as I want to keep one for my collection.

Offline badon

I'll take it! How much did you say it was? :)
 

Offline numistacker

I'll take it! How much did you say it was? :)

How much do you want it to be? Happy to review sealed bids ))

Offline StackOfPandas

You can have it badon, be my guest. I was just joking because I have more pandas to stack anyway. My one true love is pandas. Nanjing/Nanking pandas are on the radar and I have to get them while the getting is good. Great article by the way about the imitation and flattery. Made me love my pandas even more.
 
The following users thanked this post: badon

Offline badon

Great, that's just great with two of them. One for badon and one for me. Squee!

You have any for sale? I still don't have one for my collection, and I'm doing my best to make this post sound as pathetically whiney and shrill as possible, haha :)

I can feel a bidding war coming on )) seriously I have 1 for sale as I want to keep one for my collection.

PM sent! Is there a discount for NGC putting it in the holder backwards, haha :)
 

Offline badon

You can have it badon, be my guest. I was just joking because I have more pandas to stack anyway. My one true love is pandas. Nanjing/Nanking pandas are on the radar and I have to get them while the getting is good. Great article by the way about the imitation and flattery. Made me love my pandas even more.

Thank you very much, I owe you one :)
 

Offline barsenault

Nice.  Two happy people. You gotta luv it!!
MORE INEXPENSIVE NON-FIAT COINS HERE: http://tinyurl.com/zzgbyfm
 

Offline numistacker

You can have it badon, be my guest. I was just joking because I have more pandas to stack anyway. My one true love is pandas. Nanjing/Nanking pandas are on the radar and I have to get them while the getting is good. Great article by the way about the imitation and flattery. Made me love my pandas even more.

Thank you very much, I owe you one :)
Great, that's just great with two of them. One for badon and one for me. Squee!

You have any for sale? I still don't have one for my collection, and I'm doing my best to make this post sound as pathetically whiney and shrill as possible, haha :)

I can feel a bidding war coming on )) seriously I have 1 for sale as I want to keep one for my collection.

PM sent! Is there a discount for NGC putting it in the holder backwards, haha :)

I think there is a premium for an error slab ))

Offline badon

HAHAHAHAHA, that's a good joke...yeeah, I'm going to keep my mouth shut now :)
 

Offline trouble

I saw the second trimetalic of the series in the eBay. As dragon and Phoenix, barsenualt and partner do not really sell it on eBay.

I read silverstacker.com #2 of the second trimetalic swan and mandarin duck is accepting pre order now.

Will this sold majority before releasing to eBay like dragon and Phoenix #3,4 and 5?
 

Offline badon

The first two Antique Silver Dragon and Phoenix are back from NGC grading with PF69 which is very good for an Antique finish coin.

You may have noticed that these are basically impossible to find.

Mintage is 69 non-fiat coins for this one.
My understanding is 30 were kept by the mint leaving 39 in circulation.

Is the mintage 69 or is it 70? I thought it was 70.

On reddit:

The first Nanjing 2015 trimetallic auspicious culture dragon and phoenix matte antiqued certified at NGC
 

Offline numistacker

I am pretty sure it's 69 and minted and that 30 were being held by the mint and were not available for sale. When I get to London I will check the Coa. The  link that NGC have added to the Cert look up is incorrect. If you notice it actually links to the Dragon and Phoenix number two coin which I have also had graded, the one with the red enamel finish .

Offline barsenault

MORE INEXPENSIVE NON-FIAT COINS HERE: http://tinyurl.com/zzgbyfm
 

Offline badon

 

Offline numistacker


Offline barsenault

Hmm.  Are you sure?  It shows one.  It could be that Andy added another one, since it is a bit of a higher price?  They are nice, for sure.  Glad I have one. Lol.
MORE INEXPENSIVE NON-FIAT COINS HERE: http://tinyurl.com/zzgbyfm
 

Offline badon

I nabbed screenshot of it when it was sold out. I reloaded when you said there is 1 more, and I screenshotted that too. It's at a higher price. I have had the crappiest luck collecting the big, impressive dragon and phoenix coins. The only ones I have are the 1990 2 g silver ones. My collection of those is so nice, with all the varieties and COA errors, it almost makes up for missing the boat on the 1989 2 oz gold dragon and phoenix, the 1990 2 oz gold dragon and phoenix, the 1990 1 g gold dragon and phoenix, and the Nanjing 2016 trimetallic dragon and phoenix antiqued.

Nobody has enough cash to collect everything. It simply cannot be done. Buy what you like, sell the rest to take some profits and give someone else a chance to own it.
 

Offline badon

With the release of the 2016 Nanjing pandas, I'm convinced the Nanjing mint is serious business. They haven't made very many coins so far, and temporarily at least, it's not impossible to assemble a collection of everything they have ever minted. Even the rarest of the rare can probably be pried out of somebody's hands for a price that mere mortals can afford. I will be very curious to see what the 2016 65 g silver panda matte antiqued (mintage 30) sells for on the secondary market, after people start receiving their packages in another week or two. I have hunch somebody out there got more than 1, and he's going to be some kind Santa Claus type that will be willing to let the latecomers have a shot at buying one for not too much more than their original issue price. I hope.
 

Offline trouble

The first two Antique Silver Dragon and Phoenix are back from NGC grading with PF69 which is very good for an Antique finish coin.

You may have noticed that these are basically impossible to find.

Mintage is 69 non-fiat coins for this one.
My understanding is 30 were kept by the mint leaving 39 in circulation.

Is the mintage 69 or is it 70? I thought it was 70.

On reddit:

The first Nanjing 2015 trimetallic auspicious culture dragon and phoenix matte antiqued certified at NGC

It is 69 mintage. I own one of it.

 

Offline trouble

With the release of the 2016 Nanjing pandas, I'm convinced the Nanjing mint is serious business. They haven't made very many coins so far, and temporarily at least, it's not impossible to assemble a collection of everything they have ever minted. Even the rarest of the rare can probably be pried out of somebody's hands for a price that mere mortals can afford. I will be very curious to see what the 2016 65 g silver panda matte antiqued (mintage 30) sells for on the secondary market, after people start receiving their packages in another week or two. I have hunch somebody out there got more than 1, and he's going to be some kind Santa Claus type that will be willing to let the latecomers have a shot at buying one for not too much more than their original issue price. I hope.

I have the secondary market sell it higher for the 2016 silver antique Nanjing Panda.

Collectors also must eye on the second trimetalic of the Nanjing Mints

http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-73277-dragon-phoenix-tri-metal-1-and-2-page-1.html

http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic-77310-high-relief-perfection-from-nanjing-mint.html

I saw Barsenault webpqage is up for pre ordering:-

http://chinesemedals.com/products/nanjing-mint-trimetalic-medal-china-traditional-culture-series-2-swan-and-mandarin-duck-number-1-and-number-2-2-pc-combo-set-pre-order

http://chinesemedals.com/products/nanjing-mint-trimetalic-medal-199-mintage-combine-2-version

Another rare item which is missing under my radar. Paktong. 100 mm mintage 50 only BUT price is 199 USD with shipping.

http://chinesemedals.com/products/2014-dragon-and-phoenix-1-oz-star-2-silver-medal-by-shanghai-mint

Barsenault and Partner prefer SS as platform. They must use CCF too.
 

Offline badon

(wrong place.  I'm sure Badon will move it. Lol)
Two antique P&D here. http://chinesemedals.com/products/nanjing-mints-china-traditional-culture-series-dragon-and-phoenix-trimetalic-medal-30g-999-silver



Both sold immediately at full price ...

Hmm.  Are you sure?  It shows one.  It could be that Andy added another one, since it is a bit of a higher price?  They are nice, for sure.  Glad I have one. Lol.

Re: Long awaited Nanjing 2016 65 g silver pandas now available for pre-order:
This item must also sell globally rather than western countries and overseas. It must gain china collectors acceptance like the Nanjing trimetalic Chinese culture series [...] As my understood, local does buy a lot of the Nanjing trimetalic Chinese culture series and Shenyang Buddha. [...] I been told Nanjing trimetalic Chinese culture series # 1 & 2 does sell equally in china and overseas. #3 & 4 mainly overseas with small percentage in China. The #5 Mintage is 69 which Numistacker information is correct. I heard that Mint keep some #5 for gifting special customer and mints staff.

I suspect the sponsor did pay a high price to buy back the #5 from mint staff to resell.

Excellent information from trouble. I had not considered the possibility that dealers were begging to buy the coins from VIP's. That explains why they're sold out, then available, then sold out again. It's all secondary market coins we're seeing!
 

Offline badon

 

Offline badon

(wrong place.  I'm sure Badon will move it. Lol)
Two antique P&D here. http://chinesemedals.com/products/nanjing-mints-china-traditional-culture-series-dragon-and-phoenix-trimetalic-medal-30g-999-silver



Both sold immediately at full price ...

Hmm.  Are you sure?  It shows one.  It could be that Andy added another one, since it is a bit of a higher price?  They are nice, for sure.  Glad I have one. Lol.

Re: Long awaited Nanjing 2016 65 g silver pandas now available for pre-order:
This item must also sell globally rather than western countries and overseas. It must gain china collectors acceptance like the Nanjing trimetalic Chinese culture series [...] As my understood, local does buy a lot of the Nanjing trimetalic Chinese culture series and Shenyang Buddha. [...] I been told Nanjing trimetalic Chinese culture series # 1 & 2 does sell equally in china and overseas. #3 & 4 mainly overseas with small percentage in China. The #5 Mintage is 69 which Numistacker information is correct. I heard that Mint keep some #5 for gifting special customer and mints staff.

I suspect the sponsor did pay a high price to buy back the #5 from mint staff to resell.

Excellent information from trouble. I had not considered the possibility that dealers were begging to buy the coins from VIP's. That explains why they're sold out, then available, then sold out again. It's all secondary market coins we're seeing!

One available on ebay:

Re: MCC LIST #183, move from LBC and continuation here at the CC forum

It probably won't last very long before somebody grabs it. ebay bucks and PayPal credit deals (and maybe others) are getting better this time of year, which normally results in sales at higher prices than we would see without those deals.
 

Offline badon

 

Offline trouble

Finally, I see one piece of antique dragon and phoenix in secondary market. Price 888. Price double up for the peak price. It likely for show only. 

182301952889

#1 PF68 at 110. This is the highest mintage version.
222269524036

Edit by badon: Linkify.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 04, 01:45:49 AM by badon »
 
The following users thanked this post: badon

Offline perfulator

Finally, I see one piece of antique dragon and phoenix in secondary market. Price 888. Price double up for the peak price. It likely for show only. 

182301952889

If it sell, there might be a few released to market for quick wins, but if it not sell, I doubt there will be any alternative as everyone who sits on this know how good it is, so not an easy choise for those who have this on the buy list...
 

Offline badon

 

Offline trouble

Nanjing mint 2015 dragon Phoenix trimetalic medal antique (transculent red)

finally, someone is listing in ebay the rare version estimate at 90-120 mintage as stated in silverstacker.com forum

2015 Nanjing Mint Trimetallic Dragon and Phoenix Medal NGC PF 69

if this sold at 250 with 299 mintage the rare one 90-120 mintage shall sell higher

Edit by badon: Linkify.
« Last Edit: 2016 Oct 18, 01:49:31 PM by badon »
 

Offline badon

I would like to build a set of all the rare varieties. I'm really a sucker for variety hunting. It's a lot of fun to do, and it gives me an excuse to buy (and keep) more coins than I normally would. The tiniest little differences...can't sell that one, it's a variety!
 

Offline trouble

I would like to build a set of all the rare varieties. I'm really a sucker for variety hunting. It's a lot of fun to do, and it gives me an excuse to buy (and keep) more coins than I normally would. The tiniest little differences...can't sell that one, it's a variety!

You shall ask barsenault partner in silverstacker who is name as Andy too. I think this items sponsor by them.
 

Offline trouble

Nanjing mint 2015 dragon Phoenix trimetalic medal antique (transculent red)

finally, someone is listing in ebay the rare version estimate at 90-120 mintage as stated in silverstacker.com forum

2015 Nanjing Mint Trimetallic Dragon and Phoenix Medal NGC PF 69

if this sold at 250 with 299 mintage the rare one 90-120 mintage shall sell higher

Edit by badon: Linkify.

The red sold at 199. Will it be another listing ?
 

Offline badon

I hope so, I would like to assemble a set of them, but not enough cash!
 

Offline trouble

I hope so, I would like to assemble a set of them, but not enough cash!

I also eyeing on it.
 

Offline badon

I finally got my hands on one of the antiqued dragon and phoenix, thanks to numistacker's efforts, and I have to say, it's one of the most beautiful coins I've ever seen. At first I thought the trimetallic thing was gimmicky, but it's not - it really does add to the beauty of the design, and it just wouldn't be the same without it.

I dislike the colorized coins that are out there. To me they just look like a nice coin with some fragile junk glued or printed onto it. The enameled colorized coins are a lot better because they're more durable, but they're still not metal. I'm very much hoping the Nanjing mint's success with the trimetallic coins will enable them to produce coins that are COLORED WITH METAL, and not just selectively plated like the gold accents on the 1998 and 1999 1 oz silver Beijing expo pandas.

I have some ideas for how to do this, but it's expensive. Maybe I'll get some opinions, and then share the info with the Nanjing mint, and see what they say.
 
The following users thanked this post: numistacker

Offline trouble

I finally got my hands on one of the antiqued dragon and phoenix, thanks to numistacker's efforts, and I have to say, it's one of the most beautiful coins I've ever seen. At first I thought the trimetallic thing was gimmicky, but it's not - it really does add to the beauty of the design, and it just wouldn't be the same without it.

I dislike the colorized coins that are out there. To me they just look like a nice coin with some fragile junk glued or printed onto it. The enameled colorized coins are a lot better because they're more durable, but they're still not metal. I'm very much hoping the Nanjing mint's success with the trimetallic coins will enable them to produce coins that are COLORED WITH METAL, and not just selectively plated like the gold accents on the 1998 and 1999 1 oz silver Beijing expo pandas.

I have some ideas for how to do this, but it's expensive. Maybe I'll get some opinions, and then share the info with the Nanjing mint, and see what they say.

The technology yet to able to strike for more than 4 metals together at economy of scale if I am not wrong.

 
 

Offline badon

All the methods I can think of are expensive, and slow, so you are probably correct. I will keep pondering this question, and maybe I will think of a way to do it.
 

Offline numistacker

I finally got my hands on one of the antiqued dragon and phoenix, thanks to numistacker's efforts, and I have to say, it's one of the most beautiful coins I've ever seen. At first I thought the trimetallic thing was gimmicky, but it's not - it really does add to the beauty of the design, and it just wouldn't be the same without it.

I dislike the colorized coins that are out there. To me they just look like a nice coin with some fragile junk glued or printed onto it. The enameled colorized coins are a lot better because they're more durable, but they're still not metal. I'm very much hoping the Nanjing mint's success with the trimetallic coins will enable them to produce coins that are COLORED WITH METAL, and not just selectively plated like the gold accents on the 1998 and 1999 1 oz silver Beijing expo pandas.

I have some ideas for how to do this, but it's expensive. Maybe I'll get some opinions, and then share the info with the Nanjing mint, and see what they say.

So happy it got to you safely.

Offline badon

The Nanjing dragon and phoenix series got some attention today, here:

badon_ comments on : What Coin in Your Collection is Your Favorite? : /r/coins