Author Topic: The Nanjing Mint Auspicious Dragon and Phoenix is developing under the radar...  (Read 8836 times)

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Offline numistacker

#1 It started out with the Copper/Silver with Brass Koi Reverse (299 minted).
#2 Then we saw the strangely interesting red/brass/silver with Brass Koi Reverse Antiqued (199 minted)

Just recently two other versions were minted and these have a higher Silver Content.

#3 Silver (30g)/Copper obverse with brass reverse (70 minted)
#4 Brass/Copper obverse with Silver (30g) reverse (129 minted)
These last two are effectively a pair and have the same COA printed with a total mintage of 199 (my figures for the individual mintages are unverified at this point since the final tranche is still being minted a little later than intended due to the technical difficulties of dealing with tri-metal minting).

The #1 coin is already difficult to find and is up in price. I predict the next sales will be higher due to collectors wanting to build a set and due to the much higher introductory price of the Silver variants (#3 and #4). Though part of the price difference is down to the lower mintage numbers and the use of larger amounts of Silver, I think that we could see the #1 double in price shortly.

The #2 coin is also interesting. Lucky was selling it for $78 and it will be needed to complete the set. With a mintage of 199 the price of $78 including postage is very low. While it may not be as attractive as the #1,#3 or #4 coin I think that the demand will be there as collectors realise that this was not a one off and there are a number of variants to collect.

I did a small pre-order on the Silver Forum and these are not generally to MCC or Non-fiat coin Collectors. My Pre-order allocation was sold out within 3 days. I think that there is a good market for this type of beautiful non-fiat coin in a wider stacker market and with mintages that are this low even 0.001% of stacker interest can sell out an edition.

Here is my pre-order box opening video showing the new variants.



Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2016 May 21, 06:38:23 AM by badon »
 
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Offline numistacker

Some more pics...


Offline numistacker

Top Left to Bottom Right

#1 Copper/Silver with Brass Koi Reverse (299 minted).
#2 Then we saw the strangely interesting red/brass/silver with Brass Koi Reverse Antiqued (199 minted)
#3 Silver (30g)/Copper obverse with brass reverse (70 minted)
#4 Brass/Copper obverse with Silver (30g) reverse (129 minted)



Offline numistacker

Todays's video showing the 4 Dragon and Phoenix medals to date...



Offline badon

I have been talking with luckmoneyro about these coins, and he seems to be confused by the claim that the mintage is 70 for the 30 g silver dragon-side and 129 for the 30 g silver fish side. He said the COA says 199 for both, and he thinks that means the mintage is 199 for both. The idea to combine mintages is really stupid and I really hope they're not really doing that with these coins. Also, luckmoneyro doesn't seem to know anthing about the"Overseas edition" - what does that mean?
 

Offline numistacker

I have been talking with luckmoneyro about these coins, and he seems to be confused by the claim that the mintage is 70 for the 30 g silver dragon-side and 129 for the 30 g silver fish side. He said the COA says 199 for both, and he thinks that means the mintage is 199 for both. The idea to combine mintages is really stupid and I really hope they're not really doing that with these coins. Also, luckmoneyro doesn't seem to know anthing about the"Overseas edition" - what does that mean?

The first one was Chinese market and COA was Chinese only. This latest one is in English and Chinese and so designed to appeal to China and the West. The COA has a total combined mintage of 199 and I agree that to have one COA is stupid and confusing. The relative mintage numbers were given to me by Andy Lee when I did the Pre order for these coins on the silver forum. I believe that this imbalance is because the Silver Copper may be marginally more difficult to mint. 

Offline badon

That is very important to know. My experience in the past has been, if the COA says a mintage, that's how many eventually get minted. Whenever a lower mintage is reported on a current-year coin, EVERY TIME, the full mintage was eventually minted by the end of the year. A lot gets lost in translation, and it seems to be a part of Chinese culture to play dumb about this fact, and claim innocent accident. They do it to each other, and to everyone else, and I suspect often they truly don't even realize they're doing it.

We can blame Chinese characters for being ambiguous or having nuances of meaning that are impossible to memorize because the character set is already so huge and difficult to know enough of them for even basic literacy...that communication problem is probably where this cultural quirk originated. Yes, it's possible the full mintage won't be made, but luckmoneyro's advice to me was to go by what the COA says, and ignore any other numbers quoted. It may not be a coincidence that the "Overseas version" loses some things in translation.

I do not own any of these coins yet because I wanted to wait to see the big picture before I put money into them. I'm 100% certain I'm going to regret waiting, haha, but I can't afford everything I want anyway. The dragon and phoenix is such a popular theme worldwide, I'm kind of getting used to getting left in the dust with them! So, I may be a little cranky and extra negative about these - sour grapes maybe. In any case, it's not too late to get them, and I like researching everything just for fun, so we'll see where this rabbit hole goes...

It's a big difference between 70 and 199 mintage. This coin series has been popular from the beginning, and I'm convinced the mint will produce and sell every coin they are authorized to coin. If the COA says 199, nobody should be shocked if that turns out to be the true mintage. Everyone should know this to avoid disappointments, which are a nasty lasting scar on the whole market that can't be easily covered-up. I'm not sure what your situation is, but if you don't get convincing answers from your sources that it is indeed possible the full 199 mintage could be or has been coined, then the best advice I can give you is to tell everyone this who has pre-ordered, and give them an opportunity to back out if they choose to do so. Last time this happened, nobody was mad (on an $8000 coin!), so as long as we make a diligent effort to provide the best info we can, they will be understanding if something doesn't quite go perfectly.

In the end, sometimes its funky things like this that eventually become part of the historical story of the coins, and that keeps collectors interested and engaged. A great example are the 1984 silver pagodas. Controversy swirled around those, and it did nothing but make them more valuable. After the controversy died down, the prices weakened! Eventually dealers are going to catch on to this phenomenon, and they'll start hiring devil's advocates to troll the forums, haha. Kitco is notorious for doing things like this, but it works for them. As Liberace once said, he was crying all the way to the bank the last time someone said something unkind about him :)
 

Offline numistacker

That is very important to know. My experience in the past has been, if the COA says a mintage, that's how many eventually get minted. Whenever a lower mintage is reported on a current-year coin, EVERY TIME, the full mintage was eventually minted by the end of the year. A lot gets lost in translation, and it seems to be a part of Chinese culture to play dumb about this fact, and claim innocent accident. They do it to each other, and to everyone else, and I suspect often they truly don't even realize they're doing it.

We can blame Chinese characters for being ambiguous or having nuances of meaning that are impossible to memorize because the character set is already so huge and difficult to know enough of them for even basic literacy...that communication problem is probably where this cultural quirk originated. Yes, it's possible the full mintage won't be made, but luckmoneyro's advice to me was to go by what the COA says, and ignore any other numbers quoted. It may not be a coincidence that the "Overseas version" loses some things in translation.

I do not own any of these coins yet because I wanted to wait to see the big picture before I put money into them. I'm 100% certain I'm going to regret waiting, haha, but I can't afford everything I want anyway. The dragon and phoenix is such a popular theme worldwide, I'm kind of getting used to getting left in the dust with them! So, I may be a little cranky and extra negative about these - sour grapes maybe. In any case, it's not too late to get them, and I like researching everything just for fun, so we'll see where this rabbit hole goes...

It's a big difference between 70 and 199 mintage. This coin series has been popular from the beginning, and I'm convinced the mint will produce and sell every coin they are authorized to coin. If the COA says 199, nobody should be shocked if that turns out to be the true mintage. Everyone should know this to avoid disappointments, which are a nasty lasting scar on the whole market that can't be easily covered-up. I'm not sure what your situation is, but if you don't get convincing answers from your sources that it is indeed possible the full 199 mintage could be or has been coined, then the best advice I can give you is to tell everyone this who has pre-ordered, and give them an opportunity to back out if they choose to do so. Last time this happened, nobody was mad (on an $8000 coin!), so as long as we make a diligent effort to provide the best info we can, they will be understanding if something doesn't quite go perfectly.

In the end, sometimes its funky things like this that eventually become part of the historical story of the coins, and that keeps collectors interested and engaged. A great example are the 1984 silver pagodas. Controversy swirled around those, and it did nothing but make them more valuable. After the controversy died down, the prices weakened! Eventually dealers are going to catch on to this phenomenon, and they'll start hiring devil's advocates to troll the forums, haha. Kitco is notorious for doing things like this, but it works for them. As Liberace once said, he was crying all the way to the bank the last time someone said something unkind about him :)

All I can say is I was sent medals boxes and COA seperately and there is 199 COA for the total combined.

I reached 165 on my COA and I have 3 to come so my expectation is 199 total combined mintage.

Offline badon

They make such a big deal about their advanced minting technology, but they can't print an effing piece of paper with the right numbers on it...
 

Offline badon

IS there 1 COA for both coins, or are there 2 COA's for both coins?
 

Offline numistacker

IS there 1 COA for both coins, or are there 2 COA's for both coins?



1 COA with consecutive numbering from 1 to 199 covering the combined mintage of both coins

Offline badon

OK, thanks for the info. I can think of 2 precedents for this, and both are at the Shanghai mint with the much-vaunted CCT5667: Classical gardens series. You will see that the CCT7091 and CCT7092 2016 2 oz silver Lingering Garden Liu Yuan garden cameo and reverse cameo types, and the CCT6077 and CCT6078 2015 brass Summer Chengde Mountain Resort and matte antiqued were "split" from a single planned mintage, to 2 actual mintages, both together totaling to the authorized mintage. Once is an aberration, more than that is a routine. I'm out of time to check to see if those all came with their own separate COA's, but I think they did. The sponsors probably would have insisted, and since it's a lot less work to print COA's than to mint coins, they probably got the job done.

luckmoneyro said he does not know the sponsors of the Nanjing dragon and phoenix, and he specifically said he does not understand what they are doing. My impression is they are not experienced at this, and they do not know that these kinds of problems might kill a series. NGC has long been requiring COA's for some coins before they will grade them, and this could be an issue for them. With NO COA's, let alone accurate COA's there is bound to be a lot of confusion. Really, it's not too much to ask them to print up proper COA's and send them over. I'm sure if you said you're paying $10 for a pair of proper COA's, that might get their attention. That's less than the money you would lose if NGC refuses to grade them, but keeps your grading fee.

 

Offline numistacker

OK, thanks for the info. I can think of 2 precedents for this, and both are at the Shanghai mint with the much-vaunted CCT5667: Classical gardens series. You will see that the CCT7091 and CCT7092 2016 2 oz silver Lingering Garden Liu Yuan garden cameo and reverse cameo types, and the CCT6077 and CCT6078 2015 brass Summer Chengde Mountain Resort and matte antiqued were "split" from a single planned mintage, to 2 actual mintages, both together totaling to the authorized mintage. Once is an aberration, more than that is a routine. I'm out of time to check to see if those all came with their own separate COA's, but I think they did. The sponsors probably would have insisted, and since it's a lot less work to print COA's than to mint coins, they probably got the job done.

luckmoneyro said he does not know the sponsors of the Nanjing dragon and phoenix, and he specifically said he does not understand what they are doing. My impression is they are not experienced at this, and they do not know that these kinds of problems might kill a series. NGC has long been requiring COA's for some coins before they will grade them, and this could be an issue for them. With NO COA's, let alone accurate COA's there is bound to be a lot of confusion. Really, it's not too much to ask them to print up proper COA's and send them over. I'm sure if you said you're paying $10 for a pair of proper COA's, that might get their attention. That's less than the money you would lose if NGC refuses to grade them, but keeps your grading fee.



 You make an interesting point about grading because I have a number of medals that I will be sending to NGC for the grading the next 2 to 3 weeks.  Previously I have sent medals with no COA and I have had no problems.

This time I have taken photocopies of the COA and packed them with each medal to be a little more certain that they will be correctly graded.

Offline badon

I just had a very interesting thought. The 1984 silver pagodas had "semi-official" COA's printed up by the dealers themselves to answer the question of what the mintage was (260). Those original COA's are not from the mint, but they're absolutely contemporary, primary source, valuable historical artifacts. They are collectible, and I have paid good money to get them in all their variants. If you can't get real COA's, some kind of documentation produced by the dealers themselves with the relevant facts on them may be good enough. Deep down inside I'm secretly hoping these coins turn out to be a lot more interesting due to this issue, and I'm on the edge of my seat waiting to see how it turns out. Extra COA varieties? A repeat of 1984? A spiritual connection with the Classical Gardens? This plot could take some interesting twists from here, if you're able to rock the boat a little, all in good fun.
 

Offline badon

OK, thanks for the info. I can think of 2 precedents for this, and both are at the Shanghai mint with the much-vaunted CCT5667: Classical gardens series. You will see that the CCT7091 and CCT7092 2016 2 oz silver Lingering Garden Liu Yuan garden cameo and reverse cameo types, and the CCT6077 and CCT6078 2015 brass Summer Chengde Mountain Resort and matte antiqued were "split" from a single planned mintage, to 2 actual mintages, both together totaling to the authorized mintage. Once is an aberration, more than that is a routine. I'm out of time to check to see if those all came with their own separate COA's, but I think they did. The sponsors probably would have insisted, and since it's a lot less work to print COA's than to mint coins, they probably got the job done.

luckmoneyro said he does not know the sponsors of the Nanjing dragon and phoenix, and he specifically said he does not understand what they are doing. My impression is they are not experienced at this, and they do not know that these kinds of problems might kill a series. NGC has long been requiring COA's for some coins before they will grade them, and this could be an issue for them. With NO COA's, let alone accurate COA's there is bound to be a lot of confusion. Really, it's not too much to ask them to print up proper COA's and send them over. I'm sure if you said you're paying $10 for a pair of proper COA's, that might get their attention. That's less than the money you would lose if NGC refuses to grade them, but keeps your grading fee.



 You make an interesting point about grading because I have a number of medals that I will be sending to NGC for the grading the next 2 to 3 weeks.  Previously I have sent medals with no COA and I have had no problems.

This time I have taken photocopies of the COA and packed them with each medal to be a little more certain that they will be correctly graded.

We have to keep in mind it could be decades or centuries before some of these coins get graded. By that time, I'm sure everybody else will be able to make very nice fakes of them, and as usual, the only thing they won't bother to copy are the COA's. Having all the pedigree papers in order will always enhance the value of historical items like coins.
 

Offline perfulator

IS there 1 COA for both coins, or are there 2 COA's for both coins?


1 COA with consecutive numbering from 1 to 199 covering the combined mintage of both coins

Strange. I got separate COA's for my set from chinesemedals.  2 non-fiat coins, 2 coa's. If the plan was to have a combined COA they should be numbered 1 to 99 and sold in one box.  Maybe your seller forgot to send you one?

Anyway totally happy to be onboard this series and look forward to the continuation!

Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2016 Jun 05, 02:02:20 AM by badon »
 

Offline numistacker

Yes there are 199 COAs and 199 non-fiat coins total. The issue is split between both types.

Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2016 Jun 05, 02:03:09 AM by badon »
 

Offline perfulator

Then we agree, I understood you like you got one coa for the two non-fiat coin set, sorry

Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2016 Jun 05, 02:03:48 AM by badon »
 

Offline badon

I think I might have misunderstood that too. I'm glad to hear each coin has its own COA.
 

Offline badon

I found another precedent for "type combining": Re: New Variety Types: Frosted & Mirrored 2015 1 oz silver panda 3rd panda coin expo. I'm not sure why this is happening, but Jeru called those 3rd panda expos "varieties". That made me think it's possible the immature Chinese coin market is still trying to understand the concept of varieties, and for now they have the wrong idea that varieties are good thing based on their very limited experience with famous varieties like the 1998 1/2 oz gold large date pandas. So, they're combining mintages and pretending they're varieties when in fact they are distinct types with their own distinct mintages.
 

Offline badon

 

Offline trouble

Are you guy referring the Nanjing Mint Trimetalic?

If yes, the thread title is misleading which state shanghai mint.

Individual official mint have their policy and way of doing things or even each series on same mints.

Panda expo 3 has proof and reverse proof which issued 2 separate coa with same no. Like proof in coa no 23 BUT states proof version and reverse proof also another coa no 23 BUT states reverse proof. However, this Nanjing mints 30 g overseas version of dragon and phoenix using same coa for 2 versions as my understanding from Numistacker and perfulator. I bought few set of it and everyone with coa. Thus, it is no confusion for me at all.

I have pointed in LBC few times seems like luckypro has loss few new release items of those official mint. However, I do not know the reason even I ask few people in the market. He loss and not selling classical garden, panda expo, world heritage 4 and silver dragon and phoenix versions.

It seems an internal conflict among those distribution channels and fight among few big dealers of non-fiat.

I try to buy those silver dragon and phoenix in china BUT fail which make me no choice to buy with higher price. It not even many sold transactions in ebay. I contact one coin shop in Singapore who is chinesemedals reseller (I deduce) to get extra pair BUT they told me got no extra pair and all sold. They told me it is very fast gone and around 20 pieces were allocated to them. Numistacker did sold some for Andy of chinesemedals (guess around 10 -15 pcs). I came across someone is selling in Malaysia too (guess 20-30). Barsenault webpage and partner sold some (guess 30 - 40). So total add up are 20+ 10 +20 +30 = 80 lower estimation sold or 20+15+30 + 40 = 105.  This means half of total mintage sold. I suspect more have been sold and some of it keep for grading like the classical garden Ge Yuan. The graded coins might not more than 20- 30% of the total mintage 199 available for sell as my deduction because barsenault and partner likely keep some for their collection.     

Anyone has more information on it?




 
 

Offline numistacker

Are you guy referring the Nanjing Mint Trimetalic?

If yes, the thread title is misleading which state shanghai mint.

Individual official mint have their policy and way of doing things or even each series on same mints.

Panda expo 3 has proof and reverse proof which issued 2 separate coa with same no. Like proof in coa no 23 BUT states proof version and reverse proof also another coa no 23 BUT states reverse proof. However, this Nanjing mints 30 g overseas version of dragon and phoenix using same coa for 2 versions as my understanding from Numistacker and perfulator. I bought few set of it and everyone with coa. Thus, it is no confusion for me at all.

I have pointed in LBC few times seems like luckypro has loss few new release items of those official mint. However, I do not know the reason even I ask few people in the market. He loss and not selling classical garden, panda expo, world heritage 4 and silver dragon and phoenix versions.

It seems an internal conflict among those distribution channels and fight among few big dealers of non-fiat.

I try to buy those silver dragon and phoenix in china BUT fail which make me no choice to buy with higher price. It not even many sold transactions in ebay. I contact one coin shop in Singapore who is chinesemedals reseller (I deduce) to get extra pair BUT they told me got no extra pair and all sold. They told me it is very fast gone and around 20 pieces were allocated to them. Numistacker did sold some for Andy of chinesemedals (guess around 10 -15 pcs). I came across someone is selling in Malaysia too (guess 20-30). Barsenault webpage and partner sold some (guess 30 - 40). So total add up are 20+ 10 +20 +30 = 80 lower estimation sold or 20+15+30 + 40 = 105.  This means half of total mintage sold. I suspect more have been sold and some of it keep for grading like the classical garden Ge Yuan. The graded coins might not more than 20- 30% of the total mintage 199 available for sell as my deduction because barsenault and partner likely keep some for their collection.     

Anyone has more information on it?

 

I tried to change the title but to Nanjing -- oops.. My fault but the system would not let me ...

Offline badon

I can't believe I didn't notice the mint name error. I fixed it for you. The title was renamed from this:

The Shanghai Mint Auspicious Dragon and Phoenix is developing under the radar...

To this:

The Nanjing Mint Auspicious Dragon and Phoenix is developing under the radar...
 

Offline numistacker


I try to buy those silver dragon and phoenix in china BUT fail which make me no choice to buy with higher price. It not even many sold transactions in ebay. I contact one coin shop in Singapore who is chinesemedals reseller (I deduce) to get extra pair BUT they told me got no extra pair and all sold. They told me it is very fast gone and around 20 pieces were allocated to them. Numistacker did sold some for Andy of chinesemedals (guess around 10 -15 pcs). I came across someone is selling in Malaysia too (guess 20-30). Barsenault webpage and partner sold some (guess 30 - 40). So total add up are 20+ 10 +20 +30 = 80 lower estimation sold or 20+15+30 + 40 = 105.  This means half of total mintage sold. I suspect more have been sold and some of it keep for grading like the classical garden Ge Yuan. The graded coins might not more than 20- 30% of the total mintage 199 available for sell as my deduction because barsenault and partner likely keep some for their collection.     
 

I pre-sold 7 non-fiat coins in total and kept 4 for myself. Minting was in 2 batches and I have 1 x #3 (silver/copper) and 1 x #4 (brass/copper) Post should deliver 3 more this week - 1 missing from a customer and 2 for me with 3 coa's of which 2 are signed by the designer.

I have 3 (#1,#2,#4) at NGC getting graded and will send all the new ones to NGC over the next month or so. I have 2 more #1 non-fiat coins that i got via Lucky a couple of months ago which he sent to USA so I have not seen yet but they will also be graded.

My understanding is #1 is sold out and impossible to find. There may be a couple of #2 (red one) left and I am not 100% sure but I think probably available #3 and #4 ungraded are thin on the ground and some are being held back for graded sale.

Edit by badon: medal = non-fiat coin.
« Last Edit: 2016 Jun 07, 07:40:17 AM by badon »