Author Topic: Rare panda club ideas  (Read 5105 times)

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Offline badon

Rare panda club ideas
« on: 2016 Mar 14, 05:49:48 PM »
Badon, you mentioned once about making an under 50 club for those owning coins with a mintage of 50 and under. I thought that was a great idea, but now I'm thinking with our little corner of the market in holdings of the Baby Pandas, after they finally skyrocket, we could form our own little Baby Panda club. I can imagine all the posts of pictures of our Baby Panda collections while others wait a year(s) for just one 30g to surface on the market for them to buy. People would just hate us for the hoard we'd own over them.

I haven't done anything with the club idea yet because I'm still unsure what to call it and how it would work. Here are the ideas I've had so far:

* Panda Millennium Club (PMC)
* Panda Century Club (PCC)
* Panda Decade Club (PDC)
* Panda Year Club (PYC)
-
* Panda Eon Club (PEC)
* Panda Era Club (PEC)
* Panda Generation Club (PGC)
-
* Panda Peanut Club (PPC)
* Panda Bamboo Club (PBC)
* Panda Cub Club (PCC)
* Panda Baby Club (PBC)
-
* Panda Rarity Club (PRC)
* Panda Relative Rarity Club (PRRC)
* Panda Elite Club (PEC)
* Panda Key Club (PKC)
* Panda Semi-Key Club (PSKC)
* Panda Endangered Club (PEC)
-
* Panda 1000 Club (P100C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 1000 or less.
* Panda 500 Club (P100C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 500 or less.
* Panda 400 Club (P100C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 400 or less.
* Panda 300 Club (P300C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 300 or less.
* Panda 200 Club (P200C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 200 or less.
* Panda 100 Club (P100C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 100 or less.
* Panda 30 Club (P30C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 30 or less.
* Panda 25 Club (P25C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 25 or less.
* Panda 20 Club (P20C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 20 or less.
* Panda 15 Club (P15C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 15 or less.
* Panda 10 Club (P10C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 10 or less.
* Panda 5 Club (P5C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 5 or less.
-
* Panda Sub-1000 Club (PS100C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 1000 or less.
* Panda Sub-500 Club (PS100C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 500 or less.
* Panda Sub-400 Club (PS100C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 400 or less.
* Panda Sub-300 Club (PS300C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 300 or less.
* Panda Sub-200 Club (PS200C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 200 or less.
* Panda Sub-100 Club (PS100C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 100 or less.
* Panda Sub-30 Club (PS30C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 30 or less.
* Panda Sub-25 Club (PS25C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 25 or less.
* Panda Sub-20 Club (PS20C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 20 or less.
* Panda Sub-15 Club (PS15C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 15 or less.
* Panda Sub-10 Club (PS10C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 10 or less.
* Panda Sub-5 Club (PS5C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of 5 or less.
* Panda Sub-0 Club (PS0C), for owners of panda coins with mintages of ? or less.
* Panda Sub-Zero Club (PSZC), for owners of panda coins with mintages of ? or less.
-
* Panda 1000 Club (P1000C), for owners of panda coins with mintages at the 1000 to 1999 level.
* Panda 600 Club (P600C),
* Panda 500 Club (P500C), for owners of panda coins with mintages at the 500 to 599 level.
* Panda 400 Club (P400C), for owners of panda coins with mintages at the 400 to 499 level.
* Panda 300 Club (P300C), for owners of panda coins with mintages at the 300 to 399 level.
* Panda 200 Club (P200C), for owners of panda coins with mintages at the 200 to 299 level.
* Panda 100 Club (P100C), for owners of panda coins with mintages at the 100 to 199 level.
* Panda 30 Club (P30C), for owners of panda coins with mintages at the 30 to 99 level.
* Panda 20 Club (P20C), for owners of panda coins with mintages at the 20 to 29 level.
* Panda 10 Club (P10C), for owners of panda coins with mintages at the 10 to 19 level.
* Panda 5 Club (P5C), for owners of panda coins with mintages at the 5 to 9 level.
* Panda 1 Club (P1C), for owners of panda coins with mintages at the 1 to 9 level.
* Panda 1 Club (P1C), for owners of panda coins with mintages at the 1 to 4 level.
* Panda 0 Club (P0C), for owners of panda coins with mintages at the ? to ? level.
* Panda Zero Club (PZC), for owners of panda coins with mintages at the ? to ? level.
-
* Panda Elite Club (PEC), for all membership levels for coins with mintages of 100 or less.
* Panda Elite Club PEC100, for owners of panda coins with mintages of 100 or less.
* Panda Elite Club PEC30, for owners of panda coins with mintages of 30 or less.
* Panda Elite Club PEC20, for owners of panda coins with mintages of 20 or less.
* Panda Elite Club PEC10, for owners of panda coins with mintages of 10 or less.
* Panda Elite Club PEC5, for owners of panda coins with mintages of 5 or less.
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* Elite Panda Club (EPC), for all membership levels for coins with mintages of 100 or less.
* Elite Panda Club EPC100, for owners of panda coins with mintages of 100 or less.
* Elite Panda Club EPC30, for owners of panda coins with mintages of 30 or less.
* Elite Panda Club EPC20, for owners of panda coins with mintages of 20 or less.
* Elite Panda Club EPC10, for owners of panda coins with mintages of 10 or less.
* Elite Panda Club EPC5, for owners of panda coins with mintages of 5 or less.

If we go with "Elite Panda Club", we can format membership numbers as EPCxxx-NNN, where "xxx" is the recognized rarity level (RRL) achieved, and "NNN" is the sequential membership number. The rarity level can change, but the membership number would stay the same. We can gradually open membership to higher recognized rarity levels and mintages as the market matures, prices rise, and today's "high" mintage becomes tomorrow's "low" mintage.

Proposed rules:

* Must prove possession of the coin. Photo of the coin with a note next to it that has the date of the photo and your CCF username would work.
* Very brief momentary possession, long enough for a photographic opportunity, is allowed! Be nice to the collectors who own the rare coins, and maybe they will let you join the club. This will be a lot of fun, and educational, because it will encourage collectors to seek out the rarest coins at coin shows and museums, to give them the attention they deserve. It might be an easy way for dealers to market their coins, with promotional advertising that says they're allowing people to take photographs next to their coins. Dealers could produce special business cards specifically for this purpose, so every photo taken and submitted for membership would serve to advertise their business. I think this is a win-win thing for everyone.
* Sequential member number assigned after posting proof, and acceptance of proof.
* Member numbers are assigned in the format of "EPC30-999", "EPC30 #999", or "EPC30 member #999", with the number after "EPC" representing the recognized rarity level of the rarest coin presented as proof to earn membership.
* Members may upgrade their recognized rarity levels when they acquire rarer coins. For example, "EPC30 #999" could become "EPC20 #999". The member number remains the same.
* Coins bigger than 3 oz are to be called "fat pandas", and member numbers earned with fat pandas will be in the format "EPC30 #999FAT". "FAT" can be removed after proving possesion of a coin of sufficient rarity that is not a fat panda. "EPC30 #999FAT" is better than "EPC1000 #999", because rarity is what matters the most in this club.
* Rules are subject to change at any time, but memberships that have been legitimately granted can never be revoked due to a rule change.

Any other ideas, suggestions, or comments?
 

Offline AbeLinkin

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #1 on: 2016 Mar 18, 06:08:35 AM »
Hey badon. I've been dealing with a nightmare with my internet service provider on top of my unusually busy business schedule as of late. I have been pulling my hair out for the last 48 hours and just now, got my service back up and running as it should.

I think this is exciting and has a lot of potential. You've put together a pretty impressive list here and I like it!

I am guessing this will take a lot of work, so attacking this might work better if done in phases and as far as keeping it appealing I wold say simpler is probably better. With a little bit of polish and a healthy membership base it could draw the attention of some serious players and promoters.

You've got a much better grasp of all these coins than I do, so you're going to be able to create a much better mental image of what it should all encompass. Thinking freely here I can kind of imagine it in a sort of two group system built in the similar framework of a good coin series that's getting it's feet off the ground: Group 1 would be an achievable educational group that encourages beginners to semi-serious investors to get involved, that helps them materialize their goals and keeps them on track and slowly builds member status (This is where you'll get your most members.). While group 2 would be an elite level of super rare, low mintage coin holders that group 1 can dream about achieving, that would galvanize the clubs status, and grab the attention of the super serious collectors, putting them all into one place. These two groups could then be tiered down into sub-groups where it seems fit.

 I'm sure with time and input this will all morph into something pretty great. Getting it done and placing it correctly is going to be the hard part. Do you know of any other clubs out there doing similar things that we could get a gauge off of?
 

Offline badon

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #2 on: 2016 Mar 19, 02:22:05 AM »
If we go with the "EPCxxx" format of memberships, we could accommodate virtually everyone who owns a panda with a known mintage. So, for example, someone could whip out $37 to buy this coin that has a panda on it and has a mintage of 20'000: 141907202318. That coin would get them membership in the club as "EPC20000". It's all 1 club, but all the members are ranked by the rarity of the coins they have. I guess we don't really need any specific groups or levels of membership - the EPC number would just simply have the mintage of your rarest coin. If I used my 2013 brass panda 1st panda expo to join the Elite Panda Club, I would get EPC18, for the 18 mintage of that coin.

By the way, I was surprised at how cheap the $37 coin is. I think the Elite Panda Club could cause price gains in coins like that, because of people buying them to get the best membership at the lowest possible cost. I hope it's not a lot of work to do this club thing. Basically I would just make a forum area specifically for the club, and people would just post their "possession" photos there, and then we would judge the photo as worthy or unworthy, haha. If worthy, then we would assign the next sequential club membership number, and we're done.

If we want to make the club more exclusive, we could just decree that we're not awarding membership for any coin with a mintage above some level. For example, if we only admit members for coins with mintages of 1000 or less, that's a smaller number of members than if we admit membership for mintages of 20'000. We could raise or lower the bar depending on circumstances, to make sure membership is never too difficult. Right now, you can buy a 2014 15 g silver baby panda for about $60 to $70, which totally within reach of almost anyone, but it's still an impressive low mintage for the money. Therefore, we could propose that the maximum permissible mintage at this time is 2'014, just to cater to the easy availability of that coin.
 

Offline AbeLinkin

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #3 on: 2016 Mar 19, 04:41:50 AM »
Okay, well I like the sound of that. I may have been thinking too big, but simply crating a page to post and maintain status sounds like a good idea and that would have the added advantage of creating value within the CCF all together. If it were to gain major popularity you could later build off of it into something more organized and immersive as an actual "club" with memberships and organizational things that clubs are known for.
 

Offline badon

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #4 on: 2016 Mar 24, 08:38:13 PM »
OK, I made a forum for the club. I decided to call it the Elite Panda Coin Club (EPCC), because I like the "CC" in the acronym. It emphasizes its affiliation with the Coin Compendium (CC). So, anyone who gains admittance to the club could display their membership number in one of  these formats, with up to 6 "0" padded digits optional:

EPCC<mintage>-<membership number>
EPCC<mintage> #<membership number>

So, for my 2013 brass panda 1st panda expo, my membership number looks like this (dibs, but I still need to post my photo):

EPCC18-000001
EPCC18 #000001
EPCC18-1
EPCC18 #1

A 6 digit membership number implies the number of members is limited to about 1 million. Obviously, that huge number of members would theoretically permit membership with coins that have a maximum mintage of 1 million, but it will probably take a few more decades before panda coins with mintages of 1 million will be impressive. For now, we could exclude coins with mintages higher than 10'000. That would qualify the 1983 27 g silver panda, but not the 1982 gold pandas. Judging from the prices of 1982 gold pandas, it's possible the surviving population of them is lower than the 1983 27 g silver panda, but since the market is young and there are no reliable surviving population numbers yet, we have no choice but to rely only on known mintages.

Rare coins with known low mintages already have a price premium compared to equally rare coins that have unknown mintages, and this policy will likely add a little to the premium due to it encouraging people to favor pursuit of coins with known low mintages, instead of coins with unknown mintages, even if they have equal rarity. Since we know this phenomenon already exists without our help, I guess that means we can feel OK about snubbing rare coins that don't meet the low mintage requirements.

For now, membership is free, but in the future we might have enough volume of membership applications, and maybe member services like a newsletter or something, which would require dues to be paid in order to sustain them. I don't foresee that happening any time soon, and maybe never, because the whole point of a rare panda club is the low number of members. We'll cross that bridge when we get there.

I made the club forum description like this:

A club exclusively for collectors of "Elite Pandas", the rarest panda coins ever minted! Make a note with "Elite Panda Coin Club" and your CCF user name on it, then put the note next to your elite panda and take a photo of them both together. Then, post your photo in this forum with a message that explains why your coin makes you worthy of EPCC membership. You do NOT need to own the coin! You can ask someone to let you take a photo of your note next to their coin! See complete rules for details.

Since unlimited numbers of people can acquire membership using the exact same coin specimen, that could result in unexpectedly large numbers of members. That would be a good problem to have, though! :) We'll see how it goes, and how much interest this club generates.

I had the idea that maybe we ought to have some kind of "flair" for people to use out in the world to show off their membership. It could be something simple like a snippet of text to put into a forum signature, for use on this forum or any other forum. It could be something like pins, buttons, hats, rings, and stuff like that, if someone wants to geek-out their attire for the occasion of a coin show or some other event. The thought crossed my mind we could use more than just text in forum signatures, like a fancy banner or whatever that draws a lot more attention. We would have to auto-generate it, but I don't have time to program that up yet, so it's an idea for the future.
 

Offline AbeLinkin

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #5 on: 2016 Apr 03, 11:59:18 PM »
I apologize for it taking so long for me to comment. This has been on my mind quite a bit actually. I think it's a great idea. I really like the sound of all of this and the "flair" is an especially nice touch. What all needs to be done to get this rolling? If there is anything I can do to help please let me know.
 

Offline badon

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #6 on: 2016 Apr 04, 02:25:12 AM »
Thanks for your input. I just inaugurated the club with my own membership: EPCC badon 2013 brass panda 1st panda expo coin PCGS 69 - mintage 18. Next, I'm going to experiment with some "flair" ideas. That should be fun!
 

Offline AbeLinkin

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #7 on: 2016 Apr 05, 10:24:00 PM »
Are we to keep our admissions for the EPCC under a certain mintage or are we keeping that open for the time being?
 

Offline badon

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #8 on: 2016 Apr 05, 11:14:46 PM »
Good question. What's the mintage of your rarest panda? I proposed an eventual maximum mintage of 10'000, but that might be too high to be "elite" when there are much rarer pandas available. What do you think of putting the limit at 2'014, so people can gain admission with a 2014 15 g silver baby panda that costs only $60? That puts the financial barrier to entry low in the beginning when we're just starting the club, but given the high likelihood the baby pandas will increase enormously in value, it will result in an easy and natural increase in prestige of membership, along with the increase in the price of the baby pandas.

Since prestige of membership is based entirely on the rarity of your rarest panda, and not necessarily on the membership itself, I think we can be generous in granting membership without cheapening it. The way I envision it working is, when someone makes their photo note post, a quorum of EPCC members votes on whether to accept the new member or not by posting their "Yay" or "Nay" replies - hopefully with some snarky/humorous explanation (panda is too fat, panda is too skinny...). So we may not need to set a specific limit if the members like what they see. For example, the name is "Elite Panda Coin Club", so anything sufficiently impressive might be deemed "Elite" enough to be permitted membership. I have already anointed myself "benevolent dictator for life", so in theory I could overrule votes, but that wouldn't be as much fun as just watching the mayhem, haha.

Eventually we'll have to decide what number constitutes a "quorum" of members. Since I'm the only member, right now the quorum is only 1 :)
 

Offline AbeLinkin

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #9 on: 2016 Apr 05, 11:37:10 PM »
I like the idea of 2014 as being a firm number for "Elite" status. That seems like a good Goldilocks zone to be in. I think a good portion of the members here will be able to participate within those boundaries. It's not too small to be completely unachievable and this will also allow for the education and promotion of more than just a select few coins for people to aspire to adding to their collections (The club would need to be able to maintain some bit of achievable momentum for members.). While at the same time it's not to big for it to not be considered credible in status. When you get outside the walls of these forums, mintages of 50,000 - 100,000 look low to a lot of people and a mintage of under 10K they get really excited about, so a 2K mintage to a lot of folks can appear super rare, even more so for under 500.

We should make (we, meaning you. sorry badon. you could probably spit out a list straight from memory.) a master list of pandas that would fit into this category. A sort of checklist I guess you could say for members to keep track of. You may have even done this already. I seem to remember you having done something like this in the past. My memory is horrible.

All in all I think this is great!
 

Offline badon

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #10 on: 2016 Apr 06, 12:20:34 AM »
I just made forums for GRANTED and DENIED membership requests. It seems we might want something like "GRACED BY THE HAND OF GOD" if somebody gets a note photo for the 1982 1 oz platinum panda with a mintage of 5, haha. I can see how this club might be a lot of fun for both the owners of these coins, and their "fans" begging for permission to take a photo of them. I agree about the need for a list. Here are some good starters:

* 2014 baby panda speculative investment potential comparison
* Re: Lists of coins that might be a good investment

An easy place to maintain a list is in CCT30: Panda. The lists above mostly only cover pandas with mintages under 100 if I remember correctly. Having a convenient list of pandas with links to find them on ebay, will simplify the process of chasing and collecting the rarest pandas (the metal ones, not the meat ones). I did some quick looking around on ebay, and I couldn't find anything that is as cheap as the 2014 15 g silver baby pandas that is even close to as rare as those are. It seems 2000-mintage pandas start at a few multiples of the $60 price on the 15 g silver baby pandas. As we're looking around for other coins that would qualify for EPCC membership, we will get a feel for what's out there, and which ones give the most bang for your buck, both in terms of membership, and maybe investment potential too.
 

Offline AbeLinkin

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #11 on: 2016 Apr 06, 12:45:13 AM »
Another question - Lets say someone has more than one of one coin. Should they post an image of only one and move on to the next? Or should they post an image of all of what they have and/or individual posts of each as they are acquired? Would having more give them more "points"?
 

Offline badon

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #12 on: 2016 Apr 06, 01:11:03 AM »
Fantastic idea! A points system is the next logical step after assembling a list of rare pandas that can earn qualification for EPCC membership. I just ran some numbers, and the easiest way to assign points might be to use this formula:

1 / mintage X 1000 = POINTS

So, for my 2013 brass panda 1st panda expo, the formula would look like this:

1 / 18 X 1000 = 55.5555 points

For a 2014 15 g silver baby panda, the formula looks like this:

1 / 2014 X 1000 = 0.4965 points

That means you would need 112 of the 2014 15 g silver baby pandas to match the points I get from just one 2013 brass panda expo. At $60 each, that means you would have to spend $6720 on 15 g baby pandas to match the 2013 brass panda expo that costs $5888 on ebay right now: 161996917844 (with Best Offer option). If the 15 g baby pandas go up to $100 each (I believe they will in the next year or two), then you would have to spend $11'200 on them to match the 2013 brass panda expo. Although some people might opt to get their points from 15 g baby pandas when they're only $60, after they go up in value, there would be motivation to sell them and buy something rarer that costs less for the same amount of points.

Does that make sense?

Since we require an obverse and reverse photo for every coin, I guess the only way to prove you had possession of 112 of them would be to photograph the obverse of all 112 at the same time, then flip them over and photograph the reverse for all 112 of them at the same time, and/or the COA's with different COA numbers to prove it's not a Photoshop job. Then, the members might vote and say "the resolution isn't high enough to prove they're real. Now, photograph them individually next to their COA to satisfy my whims". Maybe somebody with that kind of money will have the patience to jump through the hoops like that, but I think I'll just stick to my 2013 brass panda expo :)

In any case, a points system is a FANTASTIC way to keep the ball rolling, and not rest on your laurels after you gain membership. There will always be competition for higher points. How should we represent points in the member number? "EPCC18" represents my lowest mintage coin. "000001" represents my sequential member number. What about this? EPCC18-000001-55.5555 I'm not sure, maybe we need to give it more thought. You have any other ideas for how to represent points?
 

Offline badon

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #13 on: 2016 Apr 06, 01:34:12 AM »
I just made forums for GRANTED and DENIED membership requests.

It might be premature to use those categories, because it makes the forum seem empty when it is not, so I think I will hide them for now, and then bring them back out when we need to organize a lot of topics better.
 

Offline AbeLinkin

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #14 on: 2016 Apr 06, 01:57:09 AM »
That makes a lot of sense and I like the way you have it laid out. What would be great and would help promote the club within the forum would be if there were a way to associate a members club status along with their avatar. I'm not sure how hard this would be to do and maybe a bit premature, but it would be great for members to be able to promote their status within the forum that way. This would also play like a little advertisement for the club as well. If this were something possible, at the end of each moth a new tally would have to be taken to update their status in order to keep track of their score. Also, it might be best to round up or down numbers for points to keep it simplified for viewers. So in your case your score would go from a 55.5555 to a 56. Your tally would be added up at the end of the month based on actual figures (55.5555), but when your score is attributed to your profile it would either be round up or down to keep the digits to a minimum.

Here's something else I just thought of - If we want to keep from having to do the rounding up or down as much and simplify things for members, once we have a good "checklist" of qualifying pandas for the club we could simply attribute a rounded score to each coin and have that list posted, maybe along with a dedicated rules page and the formula for how we attribute a score so there wouldn't be any questions as to how much a particular coin is worth. A 2013 brass panda 1st panda expo score would go from a 55.5555 to a 56 and a 15g Baby Panda would go from a .49 to a .50. This would eliminate a lot of the math for members, keep it streamlined and reduce questions and any possible confusion.
 

Offline AbeLinkin

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #15 on: 2016 Apr 06, 01:57:40 AM »
It might be premature to use those categories, because it makes the forum seem empty when it is not, so I think I will hide them for now, and then bring them back out when we need to organize a lot of topics better.

Understood.
 

Offline AbeLinkin

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #16 on: 2016 Apr 06, 03:15:01 AM »
Another note regarding points: It might be best to attribute points only to owners of a coin and not members only taking pictures of the coin, giving those who actually own the coins a bit of an upper tier status. Ownership of some of these coins is extremely difficult, while going to a coin show and snapping a picture of a rare coin, though not something everyone can do, is still not quite as equal to owning the coin in my opinion. Also, there will be members who will argue over whether or not someone who doesn't own the coin should be allowed membership at all. This would be a good way of killing that argument. Additionally, this builds more value in ownership and plants the club firmly with the celebration of true collectors and the collector spirit and in turn promotes actual collecting ownership, purchasing of the coins and maybe even tiny boosts in sales and the value of the coins somewhere down the line.

COA's:

As far as COA's go this is a tough one. If COA's are required some people wont want to show COA's if they should ever decide to sell them one day and want to remain anonymous. This might discourage participation. I figure if someone wants to cheat they will figure out a way to cheat one way or another and those who really want to PROVE they own it will probably show their COA's anyway. Maybe this one should be "test ran" as not necessary but encouraged first before anything is implemented.
 

Offline badon

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #17 on: 2016 Apr 06, 08:52:10 PM »
That makes a lot of sense and I like the way you have it laid out. What would be great and would help promote the club within the forum would be if there were a way to associate a members club status along with their avatar. I'm not sure how hard this would be to do and maybe a bit premature, but it would be great for members to be able to promote their status within the forum that way. This would also play like a little advertisement for the club as well.

I originally dismissed this idea from the beginning because I was afraid of the extra work, with no benefits I could think of at the time. However, your idea of assigning a points score to members who might have multiple coins just made this worth investigating seriously. It turns out it is possible to make this work, and we can put a huge impressive banner in people's forum signatures to show off their score, or something smaller and low-key if they prefer. This is a great idea that makes the club a lot more fun! I can automate most of it, I hope, so it won't take too much time. I'm not sure what the banner should look like though, maybe you have more ideas? It will go in the forum signature, so you have more space to play with than you would with just an avatar image.
 

Offline badon

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #18 on: 2016 Apr 06, 09:25:22 PM »
Another note regarding points: It might be best to attribute points only to owners of a coin and not members only taking pictures of the coin, giving those who actually own the coins a bit of an upper tier status. Ownership of some of these coins is extremely difficult, while going to a coin show and snapping a picture of a rare coin, though not something everyone can do, is still not quite as equal to owning the coin in my opinion. Also, there will be members who will argue over whether or not someone who doesn't own the coin should be allowed membership at all. This would be a good way of killing that argument. Additionally, this builds more value in ownership and plants the club firmly with the celebration of true collectors and the collector spirit and in turn promotes actual collecting ownership, purchasing of the coins and maybe even tiny boosts in sales and the value of the coins somewhere down the line.

COA's:

As far as COA's go this is a tough one. If COA's are required some people wont want to show COA's if they should ever decide to sell them one day and want to remain anonymous. This might discourage participation. I figure if someone wants to cheat they will figure out a way to cheat one way or another and those who really want to PROVE they own it will probably show their COA's anyway. Maybe this one should be "test ran" as not necessary but encouraged first before anything is implemented.

Most people do not realize how much privacy they need to be safe for themselves and their families. Allowing people membership in the club just for "shooting" a panda in a photo is a great way to give everyone deniability. Firstly, if someone who does not own a coin asks for permission to photograph a rare coin, the immediate first question from the owner is "Why?". That's word-of-mouth advertising for our club. The benefits of letting people "hunt" pandas in the wild, even if they don't technically own them, greatly outweighs the prestige that might be gained in discriminating against them. For people who really want to insist that only true owners be allowed to join the club, they can simply say "no" every time they're asked to permit a photographing it for membership. You see how this works?

If the coins are rare enough, then saying "no" to photos doesn't leave many options for those who don't actually own it. While at the same time dealers who DO own it suddenly have a way they can benefit from ownership WITHOUT selling their favorite coins. It's free marketing and online "buzz" for the dealer. It might be good enough to persuade the dealer to NEVER sell the best coins, because he knows owning the coin will bring people to his shop and his tables at coin shows...and not just any people - it's all people who are interested in owning the rarest pandas, which the dealer happens to have available for sale! Really, everybody wins with this plan.

The "elitist" can be as snooty as he wants about the issue of "owned" versus "borrowed", but only if he can afford to buy coins other people can't get access to. For those kinds of coins, the few specimens that are made available for a photography moment will be easily identifiable as DealerXYZ's coin, since the dealer's whole motivation is to milk the free advertising as much as possible. Why not insist the photo note thing include one of his business cards too? Nobody "hunting" pandas would say "no" to the dealer because the hunter is asking a big favor ("let me borrow your coin for 30 seconds"), while the dealer is asking a small favor ("your photos must show my business card, and you can't block the certification number").

Ultimately, our goal here is share our enjoyment and excitement about the world's rarest pandas (shiny ones, not furry ones). Allow the entire world to participate equally with the best of us absolutely achieves our fundamental goal better than anything else we have come up with so far. For myself, I like having the ability to deny I ever owned the coin in my photograph. I suppose letting people photograph it would enhance my privacy if lots of people are "hunting" and "bagging" my coins. If I was serious about competing for the top scores with my collection, I would just stop letting people photograph it. Which do I want more? Fame and glory, or privacy? The way we have this planned out so far gives everyone the power to choose exactly what they want, in any degree that suits them. It's elegant.

The example I gave about the COA's was just me being silly with an extreme, ridiculous example. I doubt COA's will ever play any important role in a club for coins. Who knows, maybe you'll come up with another good idea that makes use of them, like giving bonus points for proving you own both the coin and the COA...hey that was my idea, but I know you were thinking it too :)
 

Offline badon

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #19 on: 2016 Apr 07, 01:54:24 AM »
As I give this subject further thought, it might be OK to give members the option of explicitly claiming they do own, and continue to own, the coins in the photos they have submitted. It could also be optional if they want to prove it or not. Then, most people would just submit their photos and be done with it, but some people can go further if they want to. Assembling a famous set is one goal of some of the world's top collectors, so we could do this only in cases of multiple coins. Instead of proving ownership of 1 coin, they could photograph the whole set with their note.

Each time they claim they have added a coin to their set, they could photo the whole set again. Seeing them all together in 1 photo, repeatedly, is pretty convincing that they own the entire set. But, once again, deniability is there. Top collections could be exhibited at a coin show, together, and that would be a perfect photo opportunity - but if they pull that off, I'm OK with them lying to me about owning each coin. Assembling it at all is worthy of recognition by itself.
 

Offline badon

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #20 on: 2016 Apr 07, 02:13:28 AM »
I just used the EPCC points system to compare the investment potential of 2 different coins, here: Re: MCC LIST #183, move from LBC and continuation here at the CC forum. The idea of a points system was very smart. My forehead is bright pink from all the forehead slapping. Why didn't I think of a points system? It seems so obvious now, haha.
 

Offline badon

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #21 on: 2016 Apr 07, 02:54:36 PM »
Another question - Lets say someone has more than one of one coin. Should they post an image of only one and move on to the next? Or should they post an image of all of what they have and/or individual posts of each as they are acquired? Would having more give them more "points"?

Fantastic idea! A points system is the next logical step after assembling a list of rare pandas that can earn qualification for EPCC membership. I just ran some numbers, and the easiest way to assign points might be to use this formula:

1 / mintage X 1000 = POINTS

So, for my 2013 brass panda 1st panda expo, the formula would look like this:

1 / 18 X 1000 = 55.5555 points

For a 2014 15 g silver baby panda, the formula looks like this:

1 / 2014 X 1000 = 0.4965 points

That means you would need 112 of the 2014 15 g silver baby pandas to match the points I get from just one 2013 brass panda expo. At $60 each, that means you would have to spend $6720 on 15 g baby pandas to match the 2013 brass panda expo that costs $5888 on ebay right now: 161996917844 (with Best Offer option). If the 15 g baby pandas go up to $100 each (I believe they will in the next year or two), then you would have to spend $11'200 on them to match the 2013 brass panda expo. Although some people might opt to get their points from 15 g baby pandas when they're only $60, after they go up in value, there would be motivation to sell them and buy something rarer that costs less for the same amount of points.

Does that make sense?

Since we require an obverse and reverse photo for every coin, I guess the only way to prove you had possession of 112 of them would be to photograph the obverse of all 112 at the same time, then flip them over and photograph the reverse for all 112 of them at the same time, and/or the COA's with different COA numbers to prove it's not a Photoshop job. Then, the members might vote and say "the resolution isn't high enough to prove they're real. Now, photograph them individually next to their COA to satisfy my whims". Maybe somebody with that kind of money will have the patience to jump through the hoops like that, but I think I'll just stick to my 2013 brass panda expo :)

In any case, a points system is a FANTASTIC way to keep the ball rolling, and not rest on your laurels after you gain membership. There will always be competition for higher points. How should we represent points in the member number? "EPCC18" represents my lowest mintage coin. "000001" represents my sequential member number. What about this? EPCC18-000001-55.5555 I'm not sure, maybe we need to give it more thought. You have any other ideas for how to represent points?

That makes a lot of sense and I like the way you have it laid out. What would be great and would help promote the club within the forum would be if there were a way to associate a members club status along with their avatar. I'm not sure how hard this would be to do and maybe a bit premature, but it would be great for members to be able to promote their status within the forum that way. This would also play like a little advertisement for the club as well. If this were something possible, at the end of each moth a new tally would have to be taken to update their status in order to keep track of their score. Also, it might be best to round up or down numbers for points to keep it simplified for viewers. So in your case your score would go from a 55.5555 to a 56. Your tally would be added up at the end of the month based on actual figures (55.5555), but when your score is attributed to your profile it would either be round up or down to keep the digits to a minimum.

Here's something else I just thought of - If we want to keep from having to do the rounding up or down as much and simplify things for members, once we have a good "checklist" of qualifying pandas for the club we could simply attribute a rounded score to each coin and have that list posted, maybe along with a dedicated rules page and the formula for how we attribute a score so there wouldn't be any questions as to how much a particular coin is worth. A 2013 brass panda 1st panda expo score would go from a 55.5555 to a 56 and a 15g Baby Panda would go from a .49 to a .50. This would eliminate a lot of the math for members, keep it streamlined and reduce questions and any possible confusion.

Here are the calculations using 10'000 instead of 1'000, to get rid of all the excessive decimals, with this formula:

1 / mintage X 10000 = POINTS

So, for my 2013 brass panda 1st panda expo, the formula would look like this:

1 / 18 X 10000 = 555.56 points

For a 2014 15 g silver baby panda, the formula looks like this:

1 / 2014 X 10000 = 4.97 points

This formula means a coin with a mintage of 10'000 has the baseline value of exactly 1.0:

1 / 10000 X 10000 = 1.0 points

A 1982 1 oz platinum panda with a mintage of 5 would have this formula:

1 / 5 X 10000 = 2000.0 points

Since the 1982 1 oz platinum panda is is the rarest panda coin I can think of at the moment, 2000 is highest number of points possible for a single coin. That means I would need to buy 4 of the 2013 brass panda expos to beat someone with a single 1982 platinum panda. This implies prices ought to be higher for the 2013 brass panda, if rarity were the only factor that mattered. This new formula puts the minimum number of points at just barely under 5.0 for the 2014 15 g silver baby panda. That's nice, because now decimals aren't really needed for scoring the coin that most people will probably be able to own. Likewise, decimals probably aren't necessary for meaningful comparisons with rarer coins.
 

Offline badon

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #22 on: 2016 Apr 07, 05:05:43 PM »
Another question - Lets say someone has more than one of one coin. Should they post an image of only one and move on to the next? Or should they post an image of all of what they have and/or individual posts of each as they are acquired? Would having more give them more "points"?

Dealing with multiple specimens of the same coin type is probably more trouble than it's worth. Requiring each of the coins to be different somehow would help us achieve the CC's goal of researching and recording new types. If someone can convince us there is something different about multiples of the same coin, and can convince us the differences are worth our attention, then we could accept multiples. For example, identifying different dies might be judged as excellent research, and worthy of awarding points. Maybe we could accept a multi-grade set, where everything is the same except the grade, if the photos and documentation are good enough to help someone learn how to grade that particular coin type.
 

Offline AbeLinkin

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #23 on: 2016 Apr 07, 07:32:03 PM »
I'm looking to submit my first coin. Do I submit it in response to your submission? If I try to submit using "start new topic" I get an error code.
 

Offline badon

Re: Rare panda club ideas
« Reply #24 on: 2016 Apr 07, 09:34:56 PM »
What is the error you get? If you can post the exact text and/or a screenshot, that will help diagnose the problem. You can try submitting it in response to mine, and I'll just split it out and organize things like I usually do.